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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2009 : 23:04:02 [Permalink]
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One thing is, apologetics say (with sarcasm): "yeah, the conditions happen just so as to be ideal for us" (which, in itself, is not even actually true, by the way).
The naturalist will say: "The conditions being what they are, we were selected as to be the best adapted possible for these conditions'. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 01/17/2009 : 23:57:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Man, every once in a great while Dave will go on a tear that makes even me blush. And I have to say, well done. |
Thanks, H. I've given Bill the benefit of a doubt that he'd like to learn something too many times to count. Doing so any more serves no purpose other than to display a false front of tolerance and respect that Bill neither expects nor deserves. I will gladly give newbie denialists a chance or two (or two dozen), but Bill has been spewing his anti-science poison on this site for years, and I've had quite enough of it. While pointing and laughing will undoubtedly feed his persecution complex, the textual record of his sophomoric rejections of reasonable arguments speaks for itself to any rational observer.
And the irrational, while still largely in power worldwide, don't count. The Bills of the world cannot force reality to bend to their feeble, insecure wishes, but they demand to be treated as if they can. However, the only reason to coddle them is if you think you can get something from them that they won't otherwise give up, but they've proven that giving stuff up is anathema to them. Compromise means only losing a bit of whatever power we have, because they will not move one millimeter towards the middle. Of course, they'll trumpet the lack of compromise as the dogmatic adherence to an anti-Christian worldview, but their delusions, as I already said, do not count.
Oh, sorry. Went off on a bit of a rant, there. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2009 : 02:53:54 [Permalink]
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To me, one of the most telling contrasts between fundies and, well, rational people is this: Fundies rarely bother with even the most cursory study of their primary "enemy," science, while rational people who feel the need to counter the biblical quote-mining of the fundies very often actually study those crazy scriptures quite thoroughly. They normally can hold their own even in a biblical discussion.
Fundies avoid science because, to them, it stinks of a reliance upon physical reality. They have nothing but contempt for anything but their own version of mythology. They fear being drawn into science's satanic trap by actually studying it.
This normally results in the fundies presenting, either through ignorance or deliberate deception, a completely distorted concept about what science even is, much less how it works, or the contents of its amassed body of knowledge. So they misrepresent science with convenient straw men, which is their primary rhetorical trick in attacking those ideas. Science is simply an evil, "materialist" conspiracy to fundies.
When you have no real defense, you fight dirty.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2009 : 14:12:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
However, the only reason to coddle them is if you think you can get something from them that they won't otherwise give up, but they've proven that giving stuff up is anathema to them. Compromise means only losing a bit of whatever power we have, because they will not move one millimeter towards the middle. |
This has been my conclusion for a long time now, and it's the reason I often get irritated by those rationalists who insist that polemic language is counter-productive. We are in a culture war, and the other side is fighting a zero sum game. It's win or go home. There is no reasonable middle ground. Because as you say, they aren't going to move an inch, so all "compromise" is really just our side ceding ground. The only appropriate tactic is the one that treats creationist claims with all the respect they deserve, which is none.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2009 : 20:40:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by Dave W.
However, the only reason to coddle them is if you think you can get something from them that they won't otherwise give up, but they've proven that giving stuff up is anathema to them. Compromise means only losing a bit of whatever power we have, because they will not move one millimeter towards the middle. |
This has been my conclusion for a long time now, and it's the reason I often get irritated by those rationalists who insist that polemic language is counter-productive. We are in a culture war, and the other side is fighting a zero sum game. It's win or go home. There is no reasonable middle ground. Because as you say, they aren't going to move an inch, so all "compromise" is really just our side ceding ground. The only appropriate tactic is the one that treats creationist claims with all the respect they deserve, which is none.
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Exactly. Compromise (except for scientific knowledge, which is not subject to popularity polls) is for working with the large number of people in the middle. The Christian fundies eerily are like Osama bin Laden. Send negotiators to Osama, and he'll just send back their heads.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/18/2009 20:42:53 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2009 : 23:09:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
This has been my conclusion for a long time now... |
Bears repeating every once-in-a-while. Bill provided a handy excuse.| ...and it's the reason I often get irritated by those rationalists who insist that polemic language is counter-productive. We are in a culture war, and the other side is fighting a zero sum game. It's win or go home. There is no reasonable middle ground. Because as you say, they aren't going to move an inch, so all "compromise" is really just our side ceding ground. The only appropriate tactic is the one that treats creationist claims with all the respect they deserve, which is none. |
You know, if fundamentalists were known to "slide" towards more liberal theology, there might be a point to being less harsh. But every "deconversion" story I know of involves the radical creationist jumping straight over to agnosticism, and often times then onto somewhat radical atheism. They really do tend to be all-or-nothing sorts of people (at least so far as God goes), but my sample size is - unfortunately - extremely small. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 05:23:58 [Permalink]
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| Bill, are you even a creationist? From previous posts I would have thought not. Or do you claim to be a creationist when is convenient and negate it when it´s not? Seriously! |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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leoofno
Skeptic Friend
USA
346 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 05:28:08 [Permalink]
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More info:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_25_168/ai_n16029291
Geologically speaking, O2 concentrations have floctuated between 13% (Late Permian/Early Triassic) and 35% (Late Carboniferous). Mass extinctions correlate with drops in O2, and large fauna correlate with high O2. Totally cool.
I guess God had to tinker around a bit before he got it right. |
"If you're not terrified, you're not paying attention." Eric Alterman
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 08:09:20 [Permalink]
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From what I recall, O2 levels depends mainly about the intensity of photosynthesis activity going on.
Climate change will alter it, so will the position of the land masses (the highest the proportion of continental masses around the tropics, the more activity will be going on). |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 09:36:46 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Simon |
No.
Analysis of sediment have shown that ferric oxyde only start to appear roughly between 4 to 3.5 billion years ago. |
Plus or minus 1/4 of a billion years, now that is one he!! of a window.
This indicates that dioxygen was not present before that, it was only produced when photosynthetic activity reached a certain level.
Oxygen is a very good oxidant (hence the name) and promptly enters reaction and get fixed. The only reason we have such high concentration of oxygen is because photosynthesis constantly replenish it. |
I must have misunderstood you. When you said:
| Yeah, but they are a secondary effect of life itself. |
I thought you were referring to evolutionary sciences.
No.
It is obviously an explanation to observed facts. |
It's your explanation and natural explanations do not equivocate truth by default just because you doubt/deny any creator first cause.
| That's what it was designed to do since the beginning. |
Yes it was designed, it didn't just so happen to be that way.
| No belief involved here, just a definition of scientific theory. |
We have seen many false scientific theories. Your belief is that this particular scientific theory is true.
| Obviously, ID is also an explanation of these facts. Except that ID, being un-falsifiable and non-naturalist, does not obey the rules of science and, as such, is not a scientific explanation. |
Agreed. But scientific explanation is not the end all be all of truth. We have seen plenty of scientific explanation through out the years that ended up being 100% false. The fact that humans are the ones who do science allows ample possibility for error and falsehoods to enter the scientific equation and resulting theory.
| The fact that Evolution is, most probably, the correct explanation is merely an added bonus. |
It's your conclusion that it is most probably the correct answer. And even if you give that probably a 99.99% chance of being correct that still makes it your belief that it is correct, which makes it a belief system.
And, again, no.
I know there has been literaly tenth of thousands studies (and I am being conservative there) that could have falsified evolution but instead strengthened it by bringing results compatible with what evolution would have predicted. |
Everything evolves, to what degree is the debate.
| On the other hand I only know of one study critical of evolution published in a peer reviewed journal. And, from what I heard, it was only published because it by-passed peer-reviewing. |
Peer-review does not equivocate truth, even if the peers are naturalists with a natural explanation for everything.
| Right now, you are not debating. You are just pretending that the facts that are there are not there. |
What facts?
| You know, you can pretend that the earth is flat as much as you like, it is no going to affect the shape of the planet... |
I never pretended any such thing. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/19/2009 10:33:37 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 09:43:28 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Nobody needs to invoke a "just-so" story except for you whiny, pathetic Bible-thumpers who need to have their egos stroked by an imaginary abusive father-figure.
If you want to argue the science, Bill, then you have to learn the science. "It was just so" isn't what the science tells us. That you think it is just shows your commitment to arguing against the science from a position of blatant and willful ignorance, egged on by the "shepards" of your death cult.
The fact that the only way you can find to make yourself feel special is to repeat falsehoods about well-supported science is a symptom of just how pathetic your life is, Bill. Actually, no, the simple fact that you believe the falsehoods that others have taught you, because otherwise you think (ridiculously) that you won't be "saved" is what makes you and the deity you worship both pathetic. You're in a co-dependent relationship with an imaginary bully, Bill, and you've defended its actions and are even "grateful" for the hell it puts you through right here on Earth. You even call it "love."
You are a sickness, Bill. I say that because I think you are beyond remedy yourself, but you're obviously going to keep infecting others. I'd feel sorry for you as a victim if you made some sort of effort, but after all these years it is clear that you won't. You're a willing and eager carrier of a disease, which makes you no different from the disease itself.
Oh, sorry. Went off on a bit of a rant, there. |
That's OK, it happens to the best of us, but please now allow me to put a little outside perspective on the rant. The way you patrol this website 24/7/365 it reminds me of the biggest 5th grade boy out on the elementary school playground at recess. Anyone who has the nerve to come onto your playground and call into question your scientific explanations is going to be whacked. You proceed to rant on and on about billions of years, plus or minus a 1/4 billion, in the evolution sciences. You next rant on to possible scientific explanations for the first cause of life and matter and then throw in a few insults for good measure. Your clones chime in and offer you their praise and approval, which only feeds the rants, which only sparks more fawning which only sparks more rants and the SFN machine rolls on and on....
The king of the playground and his clones will sit back and slap each other on the back as they recall the day the Christian sheep came to their den and how they devoured him whole with their scientific explanations and theory's. This will only lead to more rants and more fawning etc.... etc...
Here is the reality of the situation. I am convinced that the first cause for all that exists cannot be explained through natural explanations while you are convinced that it can and someday will be. This has been debated from the dawn of time and will continue long after our tired bones are all gone. Neither one of us can empirically explain or demonstrate that we are the one who is correct until we get to the other side. On the other side we will both know if I was correct or our very identity will disappear and it will be as if we never existed at all if you are correct. See you on the other side, I hope.
BTW to be fair Christian websites are pretty much the same thing. Like minded people sitting around offering each other confirmation on their belief system. That is a big reason I seldom visit them.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/19/2009 10:35:20 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 09:47:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Man, every once in a great while Dave will go on a tear that makes even me blush. And I have to say, well done.
Bill, I agree with all of it.
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Congratulations. Choir (you) meet the preacher (Dave W). |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 10:30:35 [Permalink]
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| I hit reply rather then edit ignore. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 01/19/2009 10:33:02 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 10:38:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by Dave W.
...You are a sickness, Bill. I say that because I think you are beyond remedy yourself, but you're obviously going to keep infecting others. I'd feel sorry for you as a victim if you made some sort of effort, but after all these years it is clear that you won't. You're a willing and eager carrier of a disease, which makes you no different from the disease itself.
Oh, sorry. Went off on a bit of a rant, there. |
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Wow, Bill, quoting two different posts as if they were one, and...| That's OK, it happens to the best of us... |
...answering the second as if it were directed at you. Quote-mining at its finest!| ...but please now allow me to put a little outside perspective on the rant. |
You don't have an "outside perspective." The idea that you're an unbiased observer is pathetically ridiculous, Bill.| The way you patrol this website 24/7/365... |
And because you begin with a lie, it doesn't bode well for the rest of your "argument."| ...it reminds me of the biggest 5th grade boy out on the elementary school playground at recess. Anyone who has the nerve to come onto your playground and call into question your scientific explanations is going to be whacked. |
Simply untrue. Honest arguments against whatever I think I know are quite welcome. What you provide is the basest of intellectual dishonesty, which you happen to think is true.| You proceed to rant on and on about billions of years, plus or minus a 1/4 billion, in the evolution sciences. |
When did I do any such thing?| You next rant on to possible scientific explanations for the first cause of life and matter and then throw in a few insults for good measure. |
I never mentioned any "first cause of life and matter" in this thread, so you're simply lying, here.| Your clones chime in and offer you their praise and approval, which only feeds the rants, which only sparks more fawning which only sparks more rants and the SFN machine rolls on and on. |
Except you've left out all the times that I and my "clones" have disagreed, at times quite nastily. The fact that they're not targets of rants and you are should tell you something.| The king of the playground and his clones will sit back and slap each other on the back as they recall the day the Christian sheep came to their den and how they devoured him whole with their scientific explanations and theory's. This will only lead to more rants and more fawning etc.... etc... |
Nothing there but rationalization that it's not your behavior that's the problem.| Here is the reality of the situation. |
Bwahahahahaha!| I am convinced that the first cause for all that exists cannot be explained through natural explanations while you are convinced that it can and someday will be. |
This black-OR-white description of "reality" is obviously false, as you well know.| This has been debated from the dawn of time and will continue long after our tired bones are all gone. Neither one of us can empirically explain or demonstrate that we are the one who is correct until we get to the other side. On the other side we will both know if I was correct or our very identity will disappear and it will be as if we never existed at all if you are correct. See you on the other side, I hope. |
But we can all demonstrate, right here and now, that you rely on lies that you create yourself and lies that you simply parrot. There's no reason to think you're correct when we have unequivocal evidence that the premises and logic for your arguments are false.
Face it, Bill: you have faith, and I do not. I don't even have faith in science. While finding out the "first cause" of the universe would be pretty neat, from what I understand of physics, it will be impossible to verify with anywhere close to the mountains of evidence we have for common descent and the rest of evolutionary theory.| BTW to be fair Christian websites are pretty much the same thing. Like minded people sitting around offering each other confirmation on their belief system. That is a big reason I seldom visit them. |
To be fair, Bill, you simply need to deride this space in which your baloney is shown to indeed be baloney in order to repair your fragile ego. Just like you need to think that everyone else relies on just as much faith as you do, because then you're no sloppier a thinker than anyone else. You won't put forth the effort to fix the problem, so you just claim that everyone else has the same problem. As I said, you are a disease, Bill. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 10:49:31 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
Dave:
I don't have faith rant rant rant...
Millions of years blah blah blah...
24/7/365 phfffff Bill why must you lie rant rant rant...
I never said any such thing, on this thread blah blah blah
Choir:
Dave you beat him up good
Dave you rock
etc.... etc... etc....
fawn fawn fawn blah blah blah etc... etc... etc...
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Really great website & reference
