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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 01/19/2009 : 19:59:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy |
Bill, I ask again, and anyone else who wants a piece of it can jump in with their version:
Ok, if natural causes were not the "first cause of life and matter," what was? |
What makes you believe that it was natural causes?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 20:00:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
You can learn your whole life and still never know. |
Yeah, that's one of the dangers of being merely human. It's a shame that not even death can save one from that little problem, ain't it?| I use the energy from such feeding to power my efforts against anti-reality goons like yourself. |
That and $4 will you get you a nice cup of joe from the local Starbucks. |
Of course it's worthless to you, Bill. Duh!| Then stop calling me a liar for saying so tongue and cheek, typical semantics. |
Actually, I was saying that I've been doing my job poorly. Your actual lies were about other things.| Your reputation follows you. |
From where?!At least I can spell "you're" correctly.Yes, it is lame to be a disease, Bill, but that's what you are.| Nothing will change for you tomorrow, Bill, because you think you're morally and logically correct, and unwilling to entertain the idea that you're wrong. |
Funny, I was just going to the same thing about you. |
You haven't even tried to show where I'm wrong about you, Bill. Of course, with all the evidence you've provided in these forums over the years, you know you'll never be able to overcome the image you've made for yourself as an unthinking, deny-the-evidence, godbotted death-cultist, so it's no surprise that you don't try.
You also wrote, to Simon:| Maybe they make bigger changes? I just don't see the evidence that they evolved to such a degree as say a fish to a philosopher. Do you? |
You've had your hand held while being led through the evidence. You rejected it for your own personal reasons, and now you deny even seeing it. And now you pretend that you're asking reasonable questions, and you'll play the victim when called on your pretense. It's a transparent ruse when one knows your history, Bill. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 20:02:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
Bill, I ask again, and anyone else who wants a piece of it can jump in with their version:
Ok, if natural causes were not the "first cause of life and matter," what was? |
What makes you believe that it was natural causes? |
Complete failure to answer the question, Bill: good job. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 20:12:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
Bill, I ask again, and anyone else who wants a piece of it can jump in with their version:
Ok, if natural causes were not the "first cause of life and matter," what was? |
What makes you believe that it was natural causes?
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Logical fallacy -- answering a question with a question. Come off your bullshit, Bill. It ain't working.
Actually, I don't 'believe' it. Now what do you not believe? And why?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 21:31:55 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Simon |
Now explain to me why small incrimental changes (continuation of microevolution along long period of time) would not generate bigger changes, macroevolution.[/quote]
Maybe they make bigger changes? I just don't see the evidence that they evolved to such a degree as say a fish to a philosopher. Do you?
[/quote]
Yes. And what is macro-evolution but micro-evolution with bigger changes?
As for the evidences, that gradual changes through evolutionary time, bringing fish to modern humans (short version):
Tiktalic
Hynerpeton
Synapsida
Therapsid
Cynodont
Symmetrodonta
Eomaia
Plesiadapis
Sahelanthropus
A. afarensis
Homo abilis
Homo ergaster
Homo erectus
Homo sapiens.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 21:33:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
| Originally posted by filthy |
Bill, I ask again, and anyone else who wants a piece of it can jump in with their version:
Ok, if natural causes were not the "first cause of life and matter," what was? |
What makes you believe that it was natural causes?
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It's not a belief. Just in the absence of any indication that non-natural causes exist, one will assume that they do not.
One could consider it an application of Ockham's razor. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2009 : 23:31:46 [Permalink]
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| Hey Simon. Rebecca Watson! Nice choice for homo sapien. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 00:21:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The very old but functional inter-office and office-to-customer phone cables I worked with back in the 1960's had the individual wires wrapped in thin paper, then twisted in pairs, and the whole cable sheathed in lead. The more modern cables around back then used vinyl insulation, with the sheathing made of thin corrugated aluminum, with a polyethylene outer jacket. No rubber anywhere.
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In the military, I was taught how to repair such a broken cable, the 50-pair paper isolated ones... They were water-proofed with tared cloth and a led shield before covered in plastic.
The paper isolation was preferred over vinyl, because the dielectricum of the paper allowed for better signal transmission.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2009 : 03:29:42 [Permalink]
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"Fish to philosopher" is yet another logical fallacy, Bill; the Straw Man Fallacy, and as such is unworthy of discussion.
I seem to recall, maybe a couple of years back, that I gave you a listing of logical fallacies -- I'm pretty sure it was you, anyway. But no matter if it wasn't; I've provided the link again, just to be sure. All you've got to do is study it and avoid getting that particular stick thrust through your conversational spokes.
The Straw Man Fallacy was, and probably still is, a favorite of the notorious Kent Hovind. Indeed, no one did it better (or worse, depending on your point of view). He could rattle 'em off like a machine gun: "You can't get a croc from a rock!" was a good one. Jonathon Sarfati is also expert at it as are many other, big-name creationists. "Goo to you via the zoo" is one of my Sarfati favorites.
I have observed that this fallacy is often used when someone runs out of argument and must grasp at shadows & smoke or capitulate.
Y'see Bill, it's really just a form of distraction and it's always done before an audience. Make a preposterous statement about an impossible situation, word it cleverly but keep it short, and the rubes will suck it up like a plate of spaghetti. You really shouldn't associate yourself with the likes of the two outright and unrepentant liars mentioned. You could get an unsavory reputation.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 01/20/2009 03:41:28 |
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 05:41:13 [Permalink]
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| He could rattle 'em off like a machine gun: "You can't get a croc from a rock!" was a good one. |
Hahahaha! Yes, but man from dust and woman from a rib make all the sense in the world. Hahahaha! 
Thank you Filthy & Simon for your help with quotes.  |
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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perrodetokio
Skeptic Friend
275 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 05:55:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Maybe they make bigger changes? I just don't see the evidence that they evolved to such a degree as say a fish to a philosopher. Do you?
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Again with the fish to philosopher thingy!
More, more!  |
"Yes I have a belief in a creator/God but do not know that he exists." Bill Scott
"They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!..." Bill Scott
"We should have millions of missing links or transition fossils showing a fish turning into a philosopher..." Bill Scott |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 06:05:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by River Otter
| He could rattle 'em off like a machine gun: "You can't get a croc from a rock!" was a good one. |
Hahahaha! Yes, but man from dust and woman from a rib make all the sense in the world. Hahahaha!
Thank you Filthy & Simon for your help with quotes.
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While it's true that you can't get a croc from a rock, you most certainly can get a rock from a croc! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 08:31:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Hey Simon. Rebecca Watson! Nice choice for homo sapien.
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One, humbly, does his best.
I don't know if 'from fish to philosopher' is a logical fallacy, considering that it is, indeed, one of the conclusions of the theory of evolution.
And it's a not like it is particularly far stretched, the fossils clearly shows this evolution in quite a detailled way.
Otter, you are welcome. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 09:11:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Kil
Hey Simon. Rebecca Watson! Nice choice for homo sapien.
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One, humbly, does his best.
I don't know if 'from fish to philosopher' is a logical fallacy, considering that it is, indeed, one of the conclusions of the theory of evolution.
And it's a not like it is particularly far stretched, the fossils clearly shows this evolution in quite a detailled way.
Otter, you are welcome.
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Context is all. Bill's using it in the tired, old "cat having a litter of puppies" context, echoing, yet again, one of the most common straw men you're likely to come across.
Logical fallacy!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 09:32:48 [Permalink]
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| Maybe. You certainly have more experience with Bill than I do. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Really great website & reference
