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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2009 : 17:46:32 [Permalink]
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While I am perfectly willing to accept the premise of staggering numbers of "earths" out there, and that abiogenesis is/has taken place on most if not all of them, I am not willing to ascribe our version of "intelligence" to their current, dominant inhabitants. Before we can do that, we must have a sort of general theory of sapience.
See, we currently have only a single species to study (discounting Neandertal, various preceding hominids, and Republicans -- sorry, couldn't resist  ) and requires either a wider sample or a more precise understanding of the chemistry that created our sapience. I foresee neither in the offing any time soon.
It could well be that alien intelligence would be so alien that we could not even recognise it as such. Evolution's a bitch, ain't it?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 02/25/2009 : 18:30:37 [Permalink]
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I'm in agreement with filthy on this one and have argued this point over at Bad Astronomy.
Its difficult to speculate about alien "civilizations" as well as alien "intelligence" because we don't really know what civilization and intelligence are when applied to aliens.
Most people over there, including some very sharp science people still tend to assume imagined extraterrestrial intelligence, no matter how physically strange in relation to us, as basically somewhat like ourselves or mimicking some aspect of our behavior.
The other recurring theme is the "Fermi Paradox" - yet Fermi was addressing his short question, (If they're so advanced - where are they?,) to a speculation based on comic book aliens who behave as we do.
The speculations swing between 'they don't exist' to 'they were/are here'. Yet there is nothing in Nature that actually precludes the galaxy being full of advanced technological beings and not one of them has ever come here. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 05:58:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Randy
Just in at CNN.
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First, it's wild speculation until they get the actual evidence. An article like that belongs in popular mechanics. And keep in mind that by the definition they're using, both Mars and Venus are 'Earth Like Planets." If it's got a star like ours, it's about the size of Earth and it's in about the same orbit from that star, it's "Earth Like." There's a hell of a lot of room there to be not at all like Earth as we know it. |
-Chaloobi
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 06:04:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
While I am perfectly willing to accept the premise of staggering numbers of "earths" out there, and that abiogenesis is/has taken place on most if not all of them, |
Why would you be willing to accept these premises when there there's absolutely no evidence for them at all? |
-Chaloobi
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 07:59:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by filthy
While I am perfectly willing to accept the premise of staggering numbers of "earths" out there, and that abiogenesis is/has taken place on most if not all of them, |
Why would you be willing to accept these premises when there there's absolutely no evidence for them at all?
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It is a mere premise and like most premises it, remains an open question until it is confirmed. But it's a big galaxy, isn't it.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 08:38:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by filthy
While I am perfectly willing to accept the premise of staggering numbers of "earths" out there, and that abiogenesis is/has taken place on most if not all of them, |
Why would you be willing to accept these premises when there there's absolutely no evidence for them at all?
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It is a mere premise and like most premises it, remains an open question until it is confirmed. But it's a big galaxy, isn't it.
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Bigger than they thought (by about 50%) per an article I read a few weeks ago in Science.
Regarding 'premise' I guess it depends on the conversation. I wouldn't accept that premise as the basis for an argument claiming aliens must exist somewhere. While I think yeah they probably do somewhere, I'd never accept an arguement it has to be the case without some much better evidence. But if you throw it out there for some idle speculation like, if you accept that there are billions of 'earth-like' worlds and many of them are infected with life, then there ought to be civilizations or whatever, then I see no issue.
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-Chaloobi
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 08:49:04 [Permalink]
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| 42 |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:43:10 [Permalink]
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| And mankind could've been the 43rd... Too bad, one opportunity missed. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 11:56:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by filthy
While I am perfectly willing to accept the premise of staggering numbers of "earths" out there, and that abiogenesis is/has taken place on most if not all of them, |
Why would you be willing to accept these premises when there there's absolutely no evidence for them at all?
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It is a mere premise and like most premises it, remains an open question until it is confirmed. But it's a big galaxy, isn't it.
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A premise can rationalized by analogy mixed with science facts, for example; the same basic chemistry discovered to be integral to life on Earth is detected in deep space, therefore the dice are loaded to life forming elsewhere.
Whether slightly loaded or (given the size of space and time) greatly loaded is not yet clearly understood. Finding independent microbes on Mars would go a long way toward completely loaded dice of life. |
Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2009 : 12:25:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by chaloobi
Originally posted by filthy
While I am perfectly willing to accept the premise of staggering numbers of "earths" out there, and that abiogenesis is/has taken place on most if not all of them, |
Why would you be willing to accept these premises when there there's absolutely no evidence for them at all?
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It is a mere premise and like most premises it, remains an open question until it is confirmed. But it's a big galaxy, isn't it.
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A premise can rationalized by analogy mixed with science facts, for example; the same basic chemistry discovered to be integral to life on Earth is detected in deep space, therefore the dice are loaded to life forming elsewhere.
Whether slightly loaded or (given the size of space and time) greatly loaded is not yet clearly understood. Finding independent microbes on Mars would go a long way toward completely loaded dice of life.
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If they found evidence of life on Mars and were able to determine that it formed there independant of life on Earth, then I'd buy the life-everywhere premise wholesale. Though, on the other hand, it might still be due to some ultra-rare characteristic found in this solar system. We really need to find evidence for it around another star too, like maybe identifying an N2/O2 atmosphere on an extra-solar planet or something. Looking at atmospheric composition of far-away planets is probably not that far in the future. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 02/26/2009 12:26:41 |
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Atheria
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 20:07:22 [Permalink]
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What gives you that idea? I don't mean to be snarky or contrary, but it is hard enough for them to find planets of earth's size as it is orbiting other stars in their habitable zone, let alone be able to spectrally analyze the atmosphere of such a small planet from light years away, as distinct from it's parent star OR other planets.
Sorry but I'd give that one 5-10 years for instruments sensitive enough for that.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2009 : 22:13:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Atheria
Sorry but I'd give that one 5-10 years for instruments sensitive enough for that.
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That's not so far into the future. It's not like the World is going to end tomorrow...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 05:39:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Atheria
What gives you that idea? I don't mean to be snarky or contrary, but it is hard enough for them to find planets of earth's size as it is orbiting other stars in their habitable zone, let alone be able to spectrally analyze the atmosphere of such a small planet from light years away, as distinct from it's parent star OR other planets.
Sorry but I'd give that one 5-10 years for instruments sensitive enough for that.
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5-10 years? That sounds great to me. I was thinking around 20 years. Nothing happens fast in the realm of space exploration, at least not unless in involves building rockets that share technology with weapons platforms. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 03/04/2009 05:40:41 |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2009 : 07:43:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chaloobi
5-10 years? That sounds great to me. I was thinking around 20 years. Nothing happens fast in the realm of space exploration, |
32 years later and we are still learning. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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How many civilizations are there in the galaxy?
