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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
 Posted - 03/21/2009 : 09:25:33
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I came across the Fema "death" camps, Rex84, and Martial Law.
I would like to get some feedback on these subjects. What do you all know about this? What are your opinions? Are these conspiracy theories? Is there a shred of proof / truth to any of this?
I am linking Rex84 from Wikipedia below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex_84
This is an example of one of the camps.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=277826260716604258
Who is U.A.F.F?
http://www.uaff.us/deathcamps.htm
I appreciate any and all, thoughts on this.
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I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2009 : 15:34:10 [Permalink]
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It seems almost all paranoia, from what I can hear (the weasel words of the narrator) and see.
One point to bear in mind: Even the outrageous relocation camps where many thousands of Japanese American citizens were interned during the paranoid early years of World War II were not "death camps." The rationale and effect was to move the Japanese-Americans away from the strategic coasts, not to slaughter them. It was an ill-advised, unconstitutional, wasteful and ultimately indefensible way to treat a group that was almost entirely loyal Americans. By forefully displacing an ethnic group, it probably would be rated as an act of genocide in our times per international law. But it wasn't mass slaughter.
I can't believe that the first action of the US government now against a suspected population would be to kill them. Even the Nazis had several "solutions" that they used against their Jews before the "final solution," including removing civil and jobs rights, and "voluntary" expulsions from Germany under pressure.
I also do not believe that President Obama nor the American people would allow death camps.
The Pentagon is pretty much required, and has been so for nearly a century, to regularly update and then file away "contingency plans" for all sorts of exercises.
Has the nation of Fiji captured an ocean liner filled with American tourists? You can bet there's a "Fiji Invasion Plan" in a file cabinet somewhere. There are contingency plans for taking over Mexico, plans to defang Malaysia if it gets nukes and rattles them. Plans for just about anything you can imagine, with the logistics all worked out in advance.
I read that the US had contingency plans prior to WWII for a war with Germany, a war with the UK, and a war with the USSR, among other scenarios.
We'd probably be shocked if we knew all the contingency plans that, say, Canada's military has, too.
But contingency plans are no indication of intent. They are a sort of insurance, and a way for the military to cover their asses for unexpected circumstances.
That there is a contingency plan to intern a large number of Americans is spooky, but neither a surprise nor much of a real threat in itself.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/21/2009 16:09:20 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2009 : 18:26:04 [Permalink]
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When you look at the objective 'evidences' of the video, it only shows that a train terminal is being repaired and that it house(d) military convoys.
There is little evidence that the installation is used to any large extent by the federal government or the military and there is even less evidences of the intent behind it.
But if the buildings were part of a sinister conspiracy, they sure did a poor job protecting the secrets, what with having amateur journalists walking in and making videos... |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
 Posted - 03/23/2009 : 12:30:59 [Permalink]
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Sorry y'all, I was away for a couple of days.
Thank you Halfmooner & Simon for your replies. I was thinking along the same line as you both, about this. The reason I posted it was because a friend had brought this up, and I didn't know what to tell them, because I had never know about such things. I figured you all would know something. I will be sure to pass on the word.
Thanks again for your help. 
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I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 13:03:41 [Permalink]
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It should also be pointed out that this is boiler-plate woo. Plenty of conspiracy-theorists have made FEMA the target of their paranoid accusations, mostly because of FEMA's broad powers in the event of emergency. Wikipedia notes:| FEMA has also been the subject of allegations by conspiracy theorists who suspect an upcoming planned genocide of the American people to be carried out by the US Government under the provisions of REX-84 and Operation Garden Plot. In February 2009, a search for "FEMA concentration camps" returned over 120,000 hits in Google with individuals and small groups filming and posting pictures of FEMA facilities which they identify as "concentration camps" or "death camps." The principal reasons for this conclusion appear to be that FEMA has broad general emergency powers, as a result of a succession of executive orders, some of which are apparently classified, which FEMA claims are issued to empower them to assist the civilian population in times of emergency. Some of these critics have noted the unexplained presence of personnel processing equipment and coffins at FEMA emergency response sites, and, in the absence of official explanations for these items, have been alarmed at the possible implications. It should surprise no one, least of all Government planners, that in an information vacuum some citizens could become alarmed at these findings, even though they may be reasonable and lawful preparations for certain extreme emergency scenarios, including unfamiliar ones that could arise in the event of biowarfare or bioterrorism. In a free society, there is a perhaps unavoidable tension between a legitimate Governmental need to keep certain preparations secret and the public's legitimate right to know. Effective oversight of this tension by duly elected officials should be considered an essential part of the "Eternal Vigilance" that is widely agreed to be necessary to maintaining the stability of a free and open democratic society. |
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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ktesibios
SFN Regular
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 14:06:57 [Permalink]
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Oh for the love of Levy's Rye Bread...
Not the Beech Grove Amtrak facility again!
While the patrons of the Alcoa Haberdashery Shoppe sneak around with video cameras to make bullshit movies about how it's a "death camp", some brave individuals have gone inside and extensively photographed what's going on there.
These strange people are known as "railfans" and the results of their work can be seen here and here. There may be more examples; Googling "Beech Grove" + Amtak + tour should turn them up.
It's a fucking repair shop for Amtrak's rolling stock. It is, at the present moment, doing major repairs on everything from passenger coaches to locomotives, as the tours I've linked clearly demonstrate.
The things that tinfoil-hat nutbars ooh and aah about- like the size of the gas lines- are readily explained by the fact that what they're doing there is heavy industry, involving things like forging bloody huge steel parts for car and loco trucks. Plants that manufacture these vehicles have similar facilities.
That these myths continue to circulate even though reliable information about this facility has been readily available to the casual investiGoogler for years serves to demonstrate the fundamental laziness and dishonesty of the paranoid conspiracy theory industry.
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"The Republican agenda is to turn the United States into a third-world shithole." -P.Z.Myers |
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2009 : 09:22:37 [Permalink]
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H. Humbert & ktesibios,
Thank you for those links! This is most helpful! 
Now I am prepared to discuss this with my friend.
Sorry to rile your feathers ktesibios, I am not as Internet savvy as some. So, if I have a question, I'm going to ask it.
I do appreciate the time,& energy you put into this. The information you and everyone else have graciously provided, will help me to debate this topic in the future.
Thanks again to all of you!
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I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 16:37:59 [Permalink]
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| As a follow-up, Brian Dunning recently did a Skeptoid episode on the subject. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 03/27/2009 20:09:04 |
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River Otter
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2009 : 18:45:09 [Permalink]
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Thanks Simon!
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I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know. -Cicero
Brother, You say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agree, as you can all read the book. -Sagoyewatha,(Red Jacket) - Chief and great orator of the six nations. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 12:38:49 [Permalink]
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| isn't this the board that thinks evil military and CIA types torture people purely for fun in guantanamo? Thats about as paranoid as you can get. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 12:56:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
isn't this the board that thinks evil military and CIA types torture people purely for fun in guantanamo? Thats about as paranoid as you can get.
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No, it isn't. The (actual) evil torturing hasn't been described here as "for fun" as far as I recall. If it has, please supply a link.
That torture has happened, by military, CIA, and by foreign governments conspiring with the Bush people via the "rendition" scheme isn't really a matter of serious dispute, despite the former Administration's attempts to define "enhanced interrogation" as not being torture.
If someone were to think actual torture were for the purpose of sadistic pleasure, that would be more a matter of misunderstanding than paranoia.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 13:06:34 [Permalink]
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| so people on the board think that torture does not yield information, (i.e. someone under duress will not tell you more than someone who is perfectly comfortable), but yet they accept the torture was taking place. What do they think the motivation was, then, if not fun? |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 15:46:31 [Permalink]
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That might have been me, in which case, you misunderstood me.
I am not convinced that torture does work (as a reliable source of information, it has had other uses in history - getting "confessions", especially bogus ones, "punishing" the victim and, indeed, just for fun- and it still is being used this way in some places in the world). There are several sources that would agree with me, for example this one that shown how the use of torture in a particular case only resulted in false leads and a waste of resources: here. And this one that offers an interesting quote.
The quote is from CIA Director Porter Goss, by the way, not exactly a light weight:
| This agency does not do torture. Torture does not work. |
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I happen to agree with the second statement, but not the first one.
I also remember John Steward interview some kind of specialist that used to work in Iraq and the man had the same conclusion. Torture is not very efficient [Edit; It was Matthew Alexander. According to Wikipedia, the guy has 14 years of experience and has worked on eliminating al-Zarqawi.]
So, why does CIA use torture? Because some of its members do believe it works. They just happen to be wrong.
Also, given the level of secrecy an unaccoutancy, derive and torture are to be expected. That is, at least, what the famous 'Stanford experiment' would suggest.
That they, even unecessarilly, ended up resorting to torture does not necessarily make the torturers evil, merelly human. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
| Edited by - Simon on 04/03/2009 16:12:14 |
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Skeptic scrubbing needed on this, please
