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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2009 : 06:57:15
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If cold fusion can be made to work, it could power the world cheaply on a virtually limitless supply of seawater. But scientists don't even know if it's possible.
Now a new study has produced evidence for the existence of low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR), the new name for the controversial process labeled "cold fusion" two decades ago.
Fusion is the energy source of the sun and other stars. It occurs when atomic nuclei are combined. Today's nuclear plants employ fission, the splitting of nuclei. Scientists have been striving for decades to tap fusion to produce electricity from an abundant fuel called deuterium that can be extracted from seawater. Fusion would not come with the radioactive byproducts of fission.
At a meeting of the American Chemical Society, the scientists described today what they claim is the first clear visual evidence that LENR devices can produce neutrons, subatomic particles that scientists view as tell-tale signs that nuclear reactions are occurring.
In all, 30 papers on the topic will be presented at the meeting this week as part of a 20th anniversary nod to the first description of cold fusion.
Today's announcement was not just a birthday wish, however.
"Our finding is very significant," said chemist Pamela Mosier-Boss of the U.S. Navy's Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center (SPAWAR) in San Diego, Calif. "To our knowledge, this is the first scientific report of the production of highly energetic neutrons from an LENR device."
The consensus 20 years ago was that fusion would require sophisticated new nuclear reactors able to withstand temperatures of tens of millions of degrees.
Then came first report on cold fusion, presented in 1989 by Martin Fleishmann and Stanley Pons. They claimed to achieve nuclear fusion at comparatively "cold" room temperatures — in a simple tabletop laboratory device termed an electrolytic cell. But other scientists could not reproduce their results, and the whole field of research declined.
http://www.livescience.com/technology/090323-cold-fusion.html
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Edited by - JustMe on 03/24/2009 06:58:13
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2009 : 12:43:27 [Permalink]
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Yes, I read about that this morning -- the Holy Grail of energy science, eh?
We all got a good chuckle out of Fleishman and Pons, but some very smart people are working on this. Again, we wait and see.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2009 : 13:24:48 [Permalink]
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Well, this is slightly encouraging news, but cold fusion still sounds too good to be true. According to the article, the scientists used a sensitive plastic to detect the presence of neutrons during the reaction, and then touted this as evidence cold fusion was occurring. But I'm guessing any energy produced by this reaction was so low as to be negligible, otherwise they could just measure the energy output and not have to go hunting for a few extra subatomic particles.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/24/2009 13:25:32 |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2009 : 13:35:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
We all got a good chuckle out of Fleishman and Pons, but some very smart people are working on this. Again, we wait and see.....
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Perhaps not as many smart people who should be, or would be, absent all the chuckling. If this is indeed a promising line of inquiry, it has no doubt been hindered somewhat by sub-optimal funding and bad optics. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2009 : 17:28:24 [Permalink]
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Fleischmann and Pons screwed the pooch by turning what may or may not be a "promising line of inquiry" into a media circus. There's a good reason why scientists don't generally hold press conferences, even when the publications of their work is assured and only a few weeks away. By doing things the way they did, and without benefit of getting independent confirmation beforehand, they pretty much damned the field to "sub-optimal funding" by turning themselves (and their supporters) into objects of scientific scorn.
And no need to guess, H. about the energy levels. From the article:One of their problems involved extreme difficulty in using conventional electronic instruments to detect the small number of neutrons produced in the process. And the article also mentions "excess heat," a term which harkens directly back to Fleischmann and Pons, and then onto the sheer difficulty of properly accounting for heat in these experiments. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 07:09:01 [Permalink]
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| Scientists shouldn't hold press conferences, and women shoudn't walk around alone downtown at 3:00 am. Neither of those choices excuse what can happen next. Many perfectly rational people think the skepticism around cold fusion became pathological early and often, and I think they're right. You likely think they're wrong. The investigation goes on, and perhpas we can both be glad for that. Proper funding and perhaps a new view of the technology that doesn't threaten to end the careers of people who might like to explore it should lead to greater clarity one way or the other. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 07:39:15 [Permalink]
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Funding of science isn't accomplished through the proper application of skepticism, as you well know. Fleischmann and Pons poisoned the well for the whole field by making a public spectacle of themselves, regardless whether I think there's something substantial to cold fusion or not. Most of the people with the money simply don't want to be associated with what appears to be a bad scientific joke.
And I don't see Mosier-Boss or anyone else named in the article you posted complaining about their careers coming to an end. Enough with the overblown paranoia! Didn't we get enough of that with the film Expelled? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 07:40:56 [Permalink]
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| Sorry Just Me, but your optimism seems a bit misplaced. Nobody said scientists shouldnt hold press conferences, just that they shouldnt hold press conferences when there is virtually no data to back up anything they say. I will say however that the media is probably at fault here as they are big fans of cold-fusion and train wrecks. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 07:54:31 [Permalink]
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| Everyone knows the work of Fleischmann and Pons was squelched by the secret Fossil Fuel Industry World Cartel, in conjunction with the Shadow World Government and key operatives placed at scientific journals. They went public with their work despite warnings, thinking they could undermine the Powers, and they paid a hefty price. They're lucky they didn't disappear or commit "suicide." The reason this is resurfacing now is the agreement between the FFWC and the SWG, the payoff being manifiested in the anomalous rise in oil prices over the last year, allowing non-carbon energy research to go forward in recognition that the comming climate disaster must finally be dealt with. If you think this stuff is neat, wait until the zero point energy research gets going. All I can say is don't invest in copper futures. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 03/25/2009 07:56:06 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 08:12:41 [Permalink]
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| Thats it your top-secret Science Manipulation Card is being revoked!...Oh and we would appreciate it if you saved us the trouble and open up your stomach. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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JustMe
Skeptic Friend
64 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 08:42:14 [Permalink]
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| Whatever. I'm not escalating another useless conversation and spending time I'll never get back sparring with various strawmen when nobody makes the slightest effort to actually read what I actually said, except perhaps for Dave, and even that's marginal. I get to think somebody like Bob Park has been a bit of an asshole, and you get to think he hasn't. Life, and science, goes on. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 09:53:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by JustMe
Whatever. I'm not escalating another useless conversation and spending time I'll never get back sparring with various strawmen when nobody makes the slightest effort to actually read what I actually said, except perhaps for Dave, and even that's marginal. I get to think somebody like Bob Park has been a bit of an asshole, and you get to think he hasn't. Life, and science, goes on. |
If you want to think that Bob Park has been a bit of an asshole, go right ahead, but be explicit about why, please. Hinting that careers are being ruined over cold fusion isn't the way to go about it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 11:05:32 [Permalink]
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Cold fusion would be fascinating... but as far as I know, there has been no mechanisms described that would explain its existence, and, indeed, our theoretical models suggest that it can not take place.
The early experiences of the 1980 by Fleishmann and Pons was mostly discredited, people could not replicate their results and, upon analysis, it was found that none of the classical products of nuclear reactions were produced.
So, cold fusion quite legitimately fell into the background.
Now, people are claiming to have reached a breakthrough in this subject... That could be exciting. But, yet again, I am not aware that the scientific community has picked up on it yet. After it has reviewed the experience and if the results are confirmed, then there will be plenty of time to rejoice. And rejoice, I will. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 12:19:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Cold fusion would be fascinating... but as far as I know, there has been no mechanisms described that would explain its existence, and, indeed, our theoretical models suggest that it can not take place.
The early experiences of the 1980 by Fleishmann and Pons was mostly discredited, people could not replicate their results and, upon analysis, it was found that none of the classical products of nuclear reactions were produced.
So, cold fusion quite legitimately fell into the background.
Now, people are claiming to have reached a breakthrough in this subject... That could be exciting. But, yet again, I am not aware that the scientific community has picked up on it yet. After it has reviewed the experience and if the results are confirmed, then there will be plenty of time to rejoice. And rejoice, I will.
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Apparently you didn't get the email.  |
-Chaloobi
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2009 : 15:32:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
None of this is reasoning for why we shouldn't fund it... |
Really? I think those are pretty great reasons why we shouldn't fund it. Why should we pour money into schemes that top physicists don't think will ever work? If our fundamental understanding of physics is somehow wrong, why not fund a perpetual motion machine? Where do you drawn the line?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/25/2009 15:34:09 |
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New hope for controversial ‘cold fusion'
