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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:15:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Have you never been mentally stuck anywhere in your life, or has every area of your life made sense all the time since you were born? |
That wasn't meant to be a rhetorical question.
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I'm sure you meant "was". And the same was true of my response, it was for effect only.
I agree with this being a regressive tax, but I also see it as a voluntary tax. I am hopeful that the increased price motivates 2 of my sisters and a couple of nieces to quit. $1500 a year is quite a savings. Maybe they would put it toward taking better care of their health. The two nieces by bmi are likely obese and really need to make healthy life style changes. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:25:10 [Permalink]
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| When I smoked, I smoked about 2 or 2 1/2 packs a day. I'm RICH!!! |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:32:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm not sure what you're asking. What system do the people of the United States, even the world, live in? |
What do you mean with "the system". It's a weasel word, as far as I'm concerned. It means whatever you want it to mean. If you're rich, "the system" is designed to take away a substantial amount of the money you earned to give it to people that didn't earn it. If you're poor, it's the social structure that didn't give a damn after you were kicked out of your job.
| It is a system built to benefit the wealthy. There were some minor programs to make sure that most of us don't starve to avoid riots. The last few months have shown that the economy of the U.S. is a fraud that benefits only a few percent at the top at the expense of the rest of us. |
Meanwhile, it is also a system that has provided substantial benefits to lots of people. Even if the number of people benefitting from them is lower (percentage wise) and the benefits Yes, the gap between rich and poor has increased substantially in the US. And yes, at this point the world economy is in the dumps. Is that due to "the system"? It definitely is true that there has been a lack of oversight of financial institutions and the products they catered. The problem I have with your argument is that even in the current system where a substantial part of the stimulus money goes to these financial institutions to keep them from crumbling, if this money would not go that way it would not be the richest people that would suffer.
Sorry, but I'm confused by your answer. The U.S. is not the Netherlands. We do not have a system which makes sure the least of us have the basics.
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But even in the US, the ones benefitting most from "the system" aren't likely to be "the rich". Yes, the Bush-government has given these people tax breaks and supported industries like the oil industries. But in the end, I don't think for a minute that they would have been anywhere near poor if the Bush government would not have sent money in that direction.
Your argument seems to be that the richest in society benefit most from the governmental programs in place. I don't see that this is the case, even in the US. The poorest in society will always be the most vulnerable to things happening in an economic system, regardless of which system you pick (and that includes communism and socialism) and thus will also have most to gain from almost any regulation or taxation scheme. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 04/08/2009 08:37:24 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:50:54 [Permalink]
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But even in the US, the ones benefitting most from "the system" aren't likely to be "the rich". |
They're the ones that benefit the most. They're the ones that get the money. Do you think they would have gotten that way without corporations, or licenses, or copyrights or subsidies, or roads, or by oppressive labor laws and actions supported by the government, or outright theft with the help of the government? Or even the idea of property itself? Do you think Haiti is so freaking poor because those crazy black people are lazy, or was it because they were raped by the wealthy in the U.S., France and Canada? Do you think the internet you're participating in was built by a single person, or for that matter the computer technology that Bill Gates profited from? No. They were built by government money. Government taking the risk out of being wealthy. Government taking the risk out of R & D for drug companies is another example, so they can spend their money on marketing.
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/cnswebbook.pdf |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:51:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
When I smoked, I smoked about 2 or 2 1/2 packs a day. I'm RICH!!!
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Clearly, attempts of conciliation are meaningless. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 08:58:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by moakley
Originally posted by Gorgo
When I smoked, I smoked about 2 or 2 1/2 packs a day. I'm RICH!!!
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Clearly, attempts of conciliation are meaningless.
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My parents ran a restaurant and I ran the cash register. We had a candy and cigarette counter. People would tell me that if the price of cigarettes went up anymore, they were quitting. That was many decades ago. I wish I could follow up and see if they smoked until they died.
I could not afford the level of habit that I had is all that I'm saying so I expect that people will quit. The same people who you know don't have much money and still smoke buy lottery tickets by the gazillion. At least they're not giving their money to Rick Warren. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/08/2009 09:00:18 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 09:08:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
But even in the US, the ones benefitting most from "the system" aren't likely to be "the rich". |
They're the ones that benefit the most. They're the ones that get the money. Do you think they would have gotten that way without corporations, or licenses, or copyrights or subsidies, or roads, or by oppressive labor laws and actions supported by the government, or outright theft with the help of the government? |
They did in the past. Why wouldn't they now? These corporations supply things people need, that's how they grow.
| Or even the idea of property itself? |
If you're rich, you rent someone to protect your property. That's how people did it in the past, why couldn't they do it now?
If you're poor, you can't pay anyone else to protect your property.
| Do you think Haiti is so freaking poor because those crazy black people are lazy, or was it because they were raped by the wealthy in the U.S., France and Canada? |
So rich nations can pillage other countries, like rich people can pillage other people. Again, how does this help your argument that the rich have most to gain from taxation schemes in place?
| Do you think the internet you're participating in was built by a single person, or for that matter the computer technology that Bill Gates profited from? No. They were built by government money. Government taking the risk out of being wealthy. Government taking the risk out of R & D for drug companies is another example, so they can spend their money on marketing. |
Would I have had the internet without government involvement. I don't know, but in that case I am benefitting as much or more from the governmental involvement than actual rich people are, ain't I? Because in that case things like the internet would cater to the filthy rich more than to me, some middle class sob. At least in the Netherlands most people have access to the internet. Without government involvement, this would probably have been more expensive and thus out or reach to the poorer, wouldn't it?
And who benefits from the government taking the risk out of R&D of medicins? Everybody using medicins, which includes the poor. Otherwise a company is less likely to start the development of that medicine.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 09:26:10 [Permalink]
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If you're rich, you rent someone to protect your property. That's how people did it in the past, why couldn't they do it now?
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That's called government. I don't know what you mean about taxation schemes, and I don't get your math. Because I have a little, when I demand something for my labor I should be more grateful than those people who get a lot handed to them for doing little, as an example? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 09:49:22 [Permalink]
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And who benefits from the government taking the risk out of R&D of medicins? Everybody using medicins, which includes the poor. Otherwise a company is less likely to start the development of that medicine.
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Oh, the old trickle-down theory? Well, it does happen that some orphan drugs get developed, but that's the exception, not the rule. You're saying that the paltry things that the poor get are the great benefit of the government, and that the much greater privileges the wealthy get they get on their own without the use of force just because, what, they're virtuous? They'd hire the Pinkertons to beat the workers (while the Sheriff looks the other way, or participates in the beating). That has nothing to do with government. That's just the "free market." Is that what you're saying? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/08/2009 09:50:19 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 10:39:05 [Permalink]
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Without government involvement, this would probably have been more expensive and thus out or reach to the poorer, wouldn't it?
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We're talking past each other here. Did the poor get wealthy from the internet in the Netherlands? They didn't in the U.S., in fact, they can't afford the internet. The poor do not benefit more from the government, the wealthy do. That's why they should pay for a greater portion of the government than anyone else. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 14:55:27 [Permalink]
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Gorgo -- I think he is arguing rich people do not need government to protect them because they have the money to hire people to protect them in the absence of a government -- in short, the wealthy could provide themselves with what the government currently provides for them if they did not pay taxes. However, without government, I think the wealthy and poor become more entrenched, so the greater social mobility possible with government gives rise to the argument that the rich became rich by the opportunities allowed by the government, and, therefore, owe more back.
Also, the wealthy DO pay a significantly greater portion of the government (the IRS says the top 10% of incomes paid 70% of income taxes in 2006). Income taxes do not tell the whole story, and the less income people make, the greater percentage of it they usually spend, so poorer people pay a greater percentage of their income in sales tax than do wealthy people. Sales tax is about 7% at most, and many states have reduced taxes (or none) on groceries. However, the sales tax does not counter the income tax, and the wealthy do pay a greater portion of taxes paid.
Are you arguing the wealthy should pay a greater than the already greater portion they pay? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2009 : 15:33:45 [Permalink]
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Are you arguing the wealthy should pay a greater than the already greater portion they pay?
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I don't know what the percentages should be for whom and when. He seemed to be making the statement that an argument could be made that the poor get more from the government than the wealthy. The wealthy are wealthy because of the government, not in spite of it. Their wealth does not exist without government. Saying that they could hire government is beside the point. That is what they're doing now in order to get wealthier. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 00:52:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Are you arguing the wealthy should pay a greater than the already greater portion they pay?
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I don't know what the percentages should be for whom and when. He seemed to be making the statement that an argument could be made that the poor get more from the government than the wealthy. The wealthy are wealthy because of the government, not in spite of it. Their wealth does not exist without government. Saying that they could hire government is beside the point. That is what they're doing now in order to get wealthier.
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Most all wealth in the U.S. is relatively new, and most if not all has been created within the framework of our government. However, I am not sure we have conclusively established that none would have been created without government help. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 01:24:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Most all wealth in the U.S. is relatively new, and most if not all has been created within the framework of our government. However, I am not sure we have conclusively established that none would have been created without government help.
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It's not just that government "helps" business or provides civil services to rich folk, it's that the government creates and runs the entire financial system by which the wealthy make their money. The government creates the currency that's used and printed; decides and regulates land ownership criteria, private property rights, and trade laws. The whole free market is a giant casino set up and maintained by the government of the American people. Yes, anyone can play and some may win big. But you have to pay to play, and the house sets the rules.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2009 : 03:39:57 [Permalink]
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Right. It isn't just providing the infrastructure for all, it works to maintain a certain level of poverty, to make sure the people do not run the government, and to make sure that corporations have wage slaves.
The government encourages and even subsidizes things like the Chicago school training South & Central Americans and Russians how to maintain and increase poverty so that the wealthy can have wage slaves. They start things like the Marshall Plan to make sure the people don't take charge of their own governments and economies. They create so-called NGO's to manipulate elections, even foment coups. They start wars and help divide countries to make the population easier for large corporations to control. They prop up dictators to make sure United Fruit has wage slaves. They run the School of the Americas so that those dictators know how to control their people.
The wealthy send lobbyists to Washington. They own the media. They own the publishing houses. I used the word 'system' because the boundaries of what we call government are within the whole system. What's a better word? Society?
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Reminds me of Bush 41
