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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 16:37:20 [Permalink]
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Dave wrote:
| Bolding mine. That's the problem. It's not a virtue. |
A benign thought which gives an individual a greater sense of meaning in their life is not a virtue? Maybe you and I have different definitions of virtue. I consider it virtuous when I have a glass of good wine truly for the total pleasure found in the experience. While I acknowledge that alcoholic consumption can be abusive, so long as I'm not using it in an abusive manner and it is giving me a more enjoyable subjective experience of life, the act of drinking can be a virtue. I fail to see how the act of indulging a belief for the sake of its own enjoyment is not virtuous in the same way. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you are being a bit of a teetotaler toward moderate faith.
| So you're saying that these beliefs are fine so long as the person knows the beliefs are not true. |
No, they are fine so long as the person knows that they might not be true and the verdict is still out due to lack of evidence.
| These are "beliefs?" I don't know of anyone who holds an opinion that they think is false, marf. |
Neither do I. But I know plenty of people who hold beliefs that they accept might not be true.
| And as soon as parents fostering beliefs in the supernatural in their kids is the exception and not the norm, you can tell me about these beliefs being "merely for personal use." |
I assumed that family life is a personal matter. Children do grow up and become adults, and they develop adult ways of thinking that inevitably diverge from what their parents taught them. I will raise my children with secular humanist values, but I perfectly well accept that they might grow up to be Christians or Buddhists or Wiccans. And frankly, I'm fine with that so long as they adopt what I see as key values of humility with regards to faith and a healthy ability to think critically.
Again, how people regard their beliefs is far more crucial than what they believe.
| Besides, I disagree with your statement even if these beliefs were wholly personal. You can't build anything on them. They are society's dead weight, not its wings. |
Again I can't help but go to my glass of wine comparison. I don't think moderate, recreational drinking is society's wing either, but I also hardly regard it as dead weight. Sometimes things are nice just for their own sake because people personally get something out of it and it also happens to cause no harm.
| The part that PZ Myers and I object to is the faith. You'll note that I'm not advocating the elimination of chess clubs and tearing down the VFW halls, or demanding an end to highschool graduation ceremonies and Sunday socials. We don't have any problem with community, ceremony, traditions, rituals or values. There are plenty of groups which encourage all those things, but we don't call them religions. Religions distinguish themselves from Dungeons & Dragons gaming groups (which have nearly all those qualities, too) by being primarily about faith. Sure, there's the occassional group we would all call a "religion" which doesn't emphasize faith, but they are few and far-between, and the everyday meaning of the word "religion" really doesn't include them. Don't make this about the exceptions. |
It isn't about exceptions. Religion has never been |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2009 : 17:44:39 [Permalink]
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| University life is for most students a sort of extended adolescence. Obviously there are exceptions, especially among part time, graduate, and older adult students, but student life for full time students just out of HS clearly presents its own lifestyle, culture, and influences. Students typically don't have responsibilities outside of their classes, and they have a lot of free time and their first taste of real freedom. |
That is true of many university students, but why do universities need to hire chaplains for this to occur? Students can form organizations alone, or with professors with interest and expertise in the topic, or with private individuals outside the university.
| Valid? I don't think that word is very applicable to beliefs. |
I was assuming a less tentative idea of a belief.
| Yes (what are quoting btw?) and if someone is fully aware that their belief is without absolute proof, opposed to facts which do have objective evidence to back them up, then they will always put facts before beliefs, and thus their beliefs are not harmful. |
Just quoting a dictionary, wanted to make sure we were speaking of "beliefs" in the same way, but I may have had a less tentative conception of a "belief." I agree with Dave that the much less tentative form is more common, such as theists taking pride in "knowing" their beliefs are all true.
| I fail to see how someone believing in reincarnation or heaven and hell it of itself causes any harm to the world. Other aspects of those kind of beliefs are always necessary to make them harmful to society. |
It may or may not be harmful to society, but that is not my only concern. I also care about intellectual honesty, which I think such beliefs (in the less tentative sense) violate. If someone drops a dollar on the street, does not know he/she dropped it, and never knew it was gone, I still think it would be wrong to steal it.
If people realize their beliefs are possibly, or even likely, unwarranted assumptions, I agree much more with your statements, but I do not see such views to be what most people mean by "belief." |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/29/2009 17:47:12 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 19:05:06 [Permalink]
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More later, but for right now:Originally posted by marfknox
Now sure, there are community center who have leaders and buildings and traditions which might serve a similar purpose to religion, but the difference is that both the religious communities and the Humanist communities are unified by their worldview, while other secular institutions are not. |
Baloney. They are unified by one small piece of their worldview. Or are all Humanists Democrats? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 19:09:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
It may or may not be harmful to society, but that is not my only concern. I also care about intellectual honesty, which I think such beliefs (in the less tentative sense) violate. |
My point to marf has been that the intellectual dishonesty of even personal faith harms society as a whole. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 21:03:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
A benign thought which gives an individual a greater sense of meaning in their life is not a virtue? |
Just as most "alternative" medicine instills false hopes, I consider most faith/spirituality/what-have-you to be instilling fake meaning. A greater sense of something that's built upon a fiction isn't a good thing at all, especially when it comes to things people use to make ethical decisions.| Maybe you and I have different definitions of virtue. I consider it virtuous when I have a glass of good wine truly for the total pleasure found in the experience. While I acknowledge that alcoholic consumption can be abusive, so long as I'm not using it in an abusive manner and it is giving me a more enjoyable subjective experience of life, the act of drinking can be a virtue. I fail to see how the act of indulging a belief for the sake of its own enjoyment is not virtuous in the same way. |
Faith isn't an aesthetic experience, marf. And it would be fantastic if everyone treated their religion as if it were a hobby.| I guess what I'm saying is that I think you are being a bit of a teetotaler toward moderate faith. |
I think it's actively harming our species. I'm as much against it as I am against legalizing heroin.| So you're saying that these beliefs are fine so long as the person knows the beliefs are not true. |
No, they are fine so long as the person knows that they might not be true and the verdict is still out due to lack of evidence. |
So you're fine with moderate belief in the Tooth Fairy? I mean, there's no evidence for or against the existence of an actual Tooth Fairy. Lack of evidence against a proposition doesn't ever justify belief, it just means that you haven't searched hard enough for evidence in favor of that same proposition. Within the context of evidentialism, lack of evidence means that the (tentative) verdict is in: the belief is false. If evidence turns up later that suggests otherwise, belief will be justified.
Otherwise, the existence of unanswered questions justify any and all beliefs, and since there will always be unanswered questions, the idea of "support through evidence" itself becomes a worthless metric.| Neither do I. But I know plenty of people who hold beliefs that they accept might not be true. |
They don't call that "faith," do they?| And as soon as parents fostering beliefs in the supernatural in their kids is the exception and not the norm, you can tell me about these beliefs being "merely for personal use." |
I assumed that family life is a personal matter. |
Not when we're talking about effects on society, where the percentage of the population with particular beliefs matters. People whose faith tells them to have 15 kids can make an impact over time, even if the rest of their theology is "benign."| Again, how people regard their beliefs is far more crucial than what they believe. |
I agree completely. Any belief that isn't su |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 23:06:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
[b]| That he exposed his murderous ideology in a private email is essentially irrelevant to the question of his beliefs. And if he's only saying the radical stuff to his flock in private, that's scary in its own way. |
I don't think you or anyone else has made an iron clad argument that the guy's opinions are radical or extreme offensive to common notions of decency in our society. Did you read my 2nd and 3rd posts in this discussion? To repeat myself, Abdul-Basser did respond to the criticism and said he: | Never expressed the position that individuals who leave Islam or convert from Islam to another religion must be killed. I do not hold this opinion personally. |
So here the guy is denying, quite explicitly, exactly what you say he believes. Have you considered for one moment that maybe, just maybe, you and PZ and others have misinterpreted what the guy was saying in that email because you are unfamiliar with the cultural, religious, and historical context of it? |
Yes, I believe he's lying after the fact in order to seem harmless. After expressing clear support for the principle of killing apostates. This would hardly be the first time a fundamentalist lied in public to cover up a radical position expressed to believers.
Yes, I've considered the possibility that PZ and I are wrong. It is possible. But I don't think we are.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 01:47:58 [Permalink]
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I really don't see that he explicitly said he agreed with the position either. Here is the closest I see to a commitment to the idea:
| there is great wisdom (hikma) associated with the established and preserved position (capital punishment) and so, even if it makes some uncomfortable in the face of the hegemonic modern human rights discourse, one should not dismiss it out of hand." |
This does not necessarily imply support for the idea either. I would say there is "great wisdom" in Marx and that I should not dismiss his work out of hand, but I'm not at all a Marxist. It could be the case that the guy was veiling his support for it, but I do not really see proof. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Harvard Chaplain supports death for apostates
