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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 05/16/2009 : 05:30:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Clearly illegal orders that usually do not merit even an administrative hearing for an Article 92 violation:
Orders to rob a bank
Orders to murder unarmed, non-resisting civilians
Orders to rape
Orders to give sensitive information to an enemy
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How about torture?
In Guantanamo base and elsewhere?
There must be many American soldiers that has committed war crimes. Even desk clerks at Guantanamo should be held morally accountable, since they knew what was going on and did jack shit about it. I hope they don't sleep well for it.
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At the time Bush Admin lawyers deemed waterboarding legal. Why then should desk clerks, soldiers and people that had no say in the descision be held accountable just because 6 years later it has been deemed illegal by another administration with a Bush complex? You sound like the Dems, you want to punish Bush and anybody that agreed with him and not move on with this country. Should Pelosi be in jail also?
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Robb,
a couple of things you should be aware of.
1) Dr. Mabuse is not from America
2) Dr. Mabuse is not calling for prosecutions
3) holding someone morally responsible does not include jail time
4) the same argument was refuted at Nuremberg
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 07:24:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
At the time Bush Admin lawyers deemed water-boarding legal.
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Which clearly shows that they were evil bastards.
Torture is illegal by the Geneva Convention, and practically every human being subjected to water-boarding attests that it is torture.
I propose everyone disagreeing with that subject themselves to a water-boarding session, and then I'll know they are speaking from a position of personal experience. In fact, I dare you to go through with it and claim the Bush Admin Lawyers are right in their assessment.
Why then should desk clerks, soldiers and people that had no say in the decision be held accountable just because 6 years later it has been deemed illegal by another administration with a Bush complex? |
This is a multiple epic FAIL.
It wasn't 6 years later. It was 50 years ago that USA among other nations that decided that torture was illegal. And listed among methods was simulated executions, and water-boarding is simulated drowning, one of the most horrible ways of dying I've been told.
I'm not a representative of an administration (Obama's?) with a Bush complex. I'm citizen of another country who is horrified because what use to be the beacon of democracy and freedom and respect for Human Rights has become a member of the Axis of Evil, because of the actions of the Bush administration. The hypocrisy of Bush nuked every ounce of goodwill your country had. There's almost nothing left for Obama to salvage, only a massive pile of shit to clean up.
First, open up Guantanamo to human rights inspections and the press, and speed up the dismantling process. Get the fuck out of Iraq.
Disband the private corporate armies like Blackwater: Countries should have armies, that are accountable to the country's leader, and in the extension, the citizens of that country. Not some private company's CEO who's main interest is profit and not the security of any nation's citizens.
These guns-for-hire scares the shit out of me. Where's the accountability?
You sound like the Dems, you want to punish Bush and anybody that agreed with him and not move on with this country. |
Fuck Move On (whatever that is), I want the Bush administration tried for war crimes. They are responsible for many hundred thousand deaths of civilians in Iraq, destabilisation of the entire Middle East, and the list doesn't stop there. Many were the violations of the Geneva convention. Bill Clinton signed a treaty that would have led to Israel acknowledging a Palestinian state, and would have given the Palestinians something to focus on (building a new nation) instead of feeding themselves hate for Israel. But Bush fucked that up as he did nothing when Israel attacked Palestinian infrastructure, both physical, and legal infrastructure for keeping law and order. Then acted so surprised when Hamas took over.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/17/2009 07:31:58 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 10:19:26 [Permalink]
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Robb:
You sound like the Dems, you want to punish Bush and anybody that agreed with him and not move on with this country. |
Yes, but we can't move on unless we face the fact that we broke treaties that we signed (The Geneva Conventions, for one) and did engage in torture. We can't move on from this issue until we address it, admit what we did, and make assurances to the world that it will not happen again. You are wrong if you think this is simply a Democratic vendetta against Bush. There is a much bigger picture to consider. A precedent was set at Nuremberg, and we were very much a part of setting that precedent. We can't now take an opposite position, just because it's our country that broke the law. Robb, this isn't just about American politics. We signed an international agreement, and set precedent in a world court which in turn puts our credibility on the line on an international scale.
As for Bush's lawyers, and everyone else involved in justifying illegal acts, you're wrong again. Bush swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States in his oath of office. Did he do that? Did Cheney do that? Nixon suggested that if a president does something, it's legal. Do you actually think that kind of defense holds any water? Because, at the heart of it, that's exactly the kind of defense that Cheney is making when he claims that torture saved lives. Basically he is saying, screw international law and the laws of our land. Are you cool with that?
Also, I don't care who goes down. If Pelosi or any other Democrat is implicated because they sat back and did nothing, fuck 'em.
What do we have to be proud of as the most powerful democracy in the world if we choose to act as thugs whenever the mood strikes?
Whenever the presidents lawyers figure out a way to circumvent the law (which they didn't really manage to do) in order to get an answer that a president wants to hear? How can we accuse other nations of human rights violations if we are also guilty?
We have lost the moral high ground, and you think this is just the Dems wanting to punish Bush?
Robb. You just don't get it.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 12:08:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Clearly illegal orders that usually do not merit even an administrative hearing for an Article 92 violation:
Orders to rob a bank
Orders to murder unarmed, non-resisting civilians
Orders to rape
Orders to give sensitive information to an enemy
|
How about torture?
In Guantanamo base and elsewhere?
There must be many American soldiers that has committed war crimes. Even desk clerks at Guantanamo should be held morally accountable, since they knew what was going on and did jack shit about it. I hope they don't sleep well for it.
|
At the time Bush Admin lawyers deemed waterboarding legal. Why then should desk clerks, soldiers and people that had no say in the descision be held accountable just because 6 years later it has been deemed illegal by another administration with a Bush complex? You sound like the Dems, you want to punish Bush and anybody that agreed with him and not move on with this country. Should Pelosi be in jail also?
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Robb, I pity you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 07:20:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
You sound like the Dems, you want to punish Bush and anybody that agreed with him and not move on with this country. |
Yes, but we can't move on unless we face the fact that we broke treaties that we signed (The Geneva Conventions, for one) and did engage in torture. We can't move on from this issue until we address it, admit what we did, and make assurances to the world that it will not happen again. You are wrong if you think this is simply a Democratic vendetta against Bush. There is a much bigger picture to consider. A precedent was set at Nuremberg, and we were very much a part of setting that precedent. We can't now take an opposite position, just because it's our country that broke the law. Robb, this isn't just about American politics. We signed an international agreement, and set precedent in a world court which in turn puts our credibility on the line on an international scale.
As for Bush's lawyers, and everyone else involved in justifying illegal acts, you're wrong again. Bush swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States in his oath of office. Did he do that? Did Cheney do that? Nixon suggested that if a president does something, it's legal. Do you actually think that kind of defense holds any water? Because, at the heart of it, that's exactly the kind of defense that Cheney is making when he claims that torture saved lives. Basically he is saying, screw international law and the laws of our land. Are you cool with that?
Also, I don't care who goes down. If Pelosi or any other Democrat is implicated because they sat back and did nothing, fuck 'em.
What do we have to be proud of as the most powerful democracy in the world if we choose to act as thugs whenever the mood strikes?
Whenever the presidents lawyers figure out a way to circumvent the law (which they didn't really manage to do) in order to get an answer that a president wants to hear? How can we accuse other nations of human rights violations if we are also guilty?
We have lost the moral high ground, and you think this is just the Dems wanting to punish Bush?
Robb. You just don't get it.
That's some righteous (in the good sense of the term) outrage right there!
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Refuses illegal war
