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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2009 : 05:53:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
But, does it make sense that Christians believe the Bible to be true and just like all unrepentent sin, homosexuality will send you to hell as the Bible says. Christians that believe this actually care about the person and do not want them to go to hell. That is not bigotry or hateful but actualy loving. |
Which stands in opposition to love someone enough to allow them to choose for themselves. Free will and such.
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All a Christian can do is talk to people, they cannot force them to act in any way. If a friend of mine was going cheat on his wife and I knew about it, I would try to talk to him and try to make him not do it. That is not interfering with his freewill but being a loving friend. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 06:59:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by marfknox
Sure. But then those same people should be actively campaigning to make any sex outside of marriage, getting drunk, not honoring the Sabbath, and eating shellfish illegal. But they don't.
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Jesus teachings and Paul's writings indicate that we need to have respect for the governments and laws that rule over Christians but they never used the law as a mechanism to change peoples behavior. They preached to crowds and talked to people one on one to change their hearts.
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Aside from this not really answering Marf's question, the problem I see is that many Christians are trying to change the law to conform to Christian belief. That was done in California with a new ban on Gay marriages, for example. Changing the law to conform with scripture goes well beyond talking and is in direct contradiction to what you have just stated. And there are many other examples of the law being used in such a way.
Where you missed Marf's point is that Christians seek changes in the law as they apply to scripture unevenly. They do seek change but ignore those things that, while also called abominations in the bible, do not bother Christians. They are picking and choosing.
This seems to suggest that Jesus only fulfilled those parts of biblical law that are things Christians personally abhor. Gay bad, shrimp scampi good. What we see is biblical interpretation that is based on a matter of convenience. Christians like shrimp scampi, so that dietary laws were fulfilled. And that is where the hypocrisy is.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 07:04:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Robb, you still haven't directly addressed the problem of how you interpret the Bible and how there can be several different interpretations which could be considered equally legitimate given our limited knowledge. Since you are not actively campaigning against gay marriage, I won't ask if you are actively campaigning against eating shellfish. But do you consider it to be sinful to eat shellfish? That gets more to the point of what people see as hypocritical behavior of Christians - that you consider some Biblical commands as moral rules, and ignore others.
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OK, Shellfish and the like. Short answer is Jesus changed the covenant. We only still need to keep all of the moral mosaic laws. In Mark 17 Jesus says:
"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' (Mark 17:18-21, NIV)
He changes the law and says it's the heart that counts not any works that make someone clean. Also see Acts 10:10-16 and Mark 7:14-15.
Jesus also goes on to say in Mt 5:21-22, NIV:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
He abolishes the ceremonial and dietary laws but makes the moral laws tougher. Also see Mt 5:27-30.
Again I will say that because Christians do not follow everything commanded or agree on intrepretations, does not mean that the Bible is untrue or that Christians really do not believe it. The central message is clear, we are sinners, Jesus paid our penalty and we can have that attributed to us if we repent, be baptized and ask. That's all, nothing more. Weather its OK to eat shellfish or not is not the central message of the Bible or Jesus.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 07:34:39 [Permalink]
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Robb:
"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") |
Not really trying to get into an argument about theology, but as an orthodox Jew, it's very unlikely Jesus said any such thing. Yes it may be in the bible, but the gospels were collected over a period of 300 years, and they were picked and chosen from. If you want a religion to spread, you don't tell people who like eating shellfish and are not circumsized that they must not do one and must do the other if you expect them to sign on... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 07:56:57 [Permalink]
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He also said (in Matthew 5: 17 and 18):
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished. |
You also mention how:
| The Bible says that sex in marriage is good. It also says homosexual sex is an abomination. So how can homosexual sex in marriage be a good thing in Gods eyes? |
The gentle term 'Abomination' does refer to the Old Testament, Leviticus 18:22 to be precise:
| Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. |
You will probably argue that homosexuality 'come from the heart' and is the 'moral sin' of lust.
I would argue that the desire to eat shellfish 'comes from the heart (and stomach)' and is the 'moral sin' of gluttony and we will have done nothing but further illustrate my point.
There are so many conflicting teaching that you can pick and choose and justify anything with the Bible, so, why are so many Christians picking to be bigoted and harmful to so many gays?
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 08:36:49 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: Short answer is Jesus changed the covenant. We only still need to keep all of the moral mosaic laws.
He abolishes the ceremonial and dietary laws but makes the moral laws tougher. |
So then why are you quoting Leviticus, particularly, a passage from Leviticus which covered laws which were more customary than anything else at the time "Abomination" translates to something which is considered gross because it is uncustomary. Look it up in Random House Dictionary and they use "spitting in the street" as an example of abomination. Just like women menstruating or eating pork is vile and disgusting to people who still follow traditional Mosaic laws. How is homosexual sex in-of-itself fundamentally different from these things?
| Again I will say that because Christians do not follow everything commanded or agree on intrepretations, does not mean that the Bible is untrue or that Christians really do not believe it. The central message is clear, we are sinners, Jesus paid our penalty and we can have that attributed to us if we repent, be baptized and ask. |
LOL! I'm sorry, Robb, but that interpretation of Christianity is not at all clear, and the proof that it is not at all clear is all the Christian sects who have adopted a different central message. Can you think outside of the box for a minute and realize that the interpretation of Christianity that seems to obvious to you is objectively not obvious at all? For example, I was raised Catholic, and your kind of Christianity was completely foreign to me until I was in college. When I first encountered Christians who adhered to your interpretation and adopted what you claim is the central message, I found their beliefs primitive, rather sad, and still do. What we think is obvious about religions is usually just what we're used to based on our culture and upbringing.
| Weather its OK to eat shellfish or not is not the central message of the Bible or Jesus. |
And Christians who embrace and accept loving homosexual relationships make the same argument about gay sex. You haven't quoted a single Bible verse that clearly marks gay sex in-of-itself as universally sinful. You've only confused the issue by quoting Leviticus and then telling us that the laws in Leviticus no long apply. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 09:17:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
So then why are you quoting Leviticus, particularly, a passage from Leviticus which covered laws which were more customary than anything else at the time "Abomination" translates to something which is considered gross because it is uncustomary. Look it up in Random House Dictionary and they use "spitting in the street" as an example of abomination. Just like women menstruating or eating pork is vile and disgusting to people who still follow traditional Mosaic laws. How is homosexual sex in-of-itself fundamentally different from these things? |
I never quoted Leviticus.
| LOL! I'm sorry, Robb, but that interpretation of Christianity is not at all clear, and the proof that it is not at all clear is all the Christian sects who have adopted a different central message. Can you think outside of the box for a minute and realize that the interpretation of Christianity that seems to obvious to you is objectively not obvious at all? For example, I was raised Catholic, and your kind of Christianity was completely foreign to me until I was in college. When I first encountered Christians who adhered to your interpretation and adopted what you claim is the central message, I found their beliefs primitive, rather sad, and still do. What we think is obvious about religions is usually just what we're used to based on our culture and upbringing. |
I was brought up Catholic as well. They add to the Bible's message. What is unclear about "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comnes to the father escept through me."? You asked me my interpretation and I told you. If you disagree fine. I don't see the point of argueing what the Bible says and how to interpret it.
| And Christians who embrace and accept loving homosexual relationships make the same argument about gay sex. You haven't quoted a single Bible verse that clearly marks gay sex in-of-itself as universally sinful. You've only confused the issue by quoting Leviticus and then telling us that the laws in Leviticus no long apply. |
I never quoted Leviticus. I explained my view of the Law. You will interpret the Bible the way you want no matter how I defend my position. You have already claimed that the Bible is contradictary and not clear on anything. Can I really say anyting to convince you that it is wrong according to the Bible? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 09:49:53 [Permalink]
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Robb:
I don't see the point of argueing what the Bible says and how to interpret it. |
Nope. You guys do that amongst yourselves. And when you get down to it, given the number of interpretations by Christians themselves, you are all going to hell. Good luck. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 11:37:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
And Christians who embrace and accept loving homosexual relationships make the same argument about gay sex. You haven't quoted a single Bible verse that clearly marks gay sex in-of-itself as universally sinful. You've only confused the issue by quoting Leviticus and then telling us that the laws in Leviticus no long apply.
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I never quoted Leviticus.
The problem is homosexuals are not going to hell just for homosexual acts. They are going to hell because they have lied, worshiped idols, lusted, murdered in their hearts, coveted etc. They are condemned regardless of their sexual orientation. Do you agree that the Bible teaches that any one of these are sins? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26024 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 12:53:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
The problem is homosexuals are not going to hell just for homosexual acts. They are going to hell because they have lied, worshiped idols, lusted, murdered in their hearts, coveted etc. They are condemned regardless of their sexual orientation. Do you agree that the Bible teaches that any one of these are sins? |
They're all sins for anyone, yes? And everyone is a sinner, yes?
So where do you think a homosexual who has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior will go after death? Committing a sin doesn't erase the fact that one has been Saved, right? If no sin is worse than any other, then being actively gay is no worse than swiping a pencil from work. Get Born Again, all is forgiven, even if you keep sinning (which, as a human being, you must). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:39:52 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by RobbI never quoted Leviticus. |
Yes you did.
You called homosexuality an abomination.
That's the exact wording from Leviticus. I find it hard to believe that you chose the term randomly and did not have Leviticus on your mind!
| What is unclear about "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comnes to the father escept through me."? |
That is the bit that is unclear:
Acts 10
But in every nation he that feareth [God], and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. |
The fact that St Peter has the exact opposite interpretation is what is unclear. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 15:37:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
R. Wreck wrote: | And to echo Kil again, if you think it is OK to deny a basic right to a class of people based solely on who they are, then I don't know what else to call it but hateful and bigoted. |
Except that Robb started this whole threat by saying that he does NOT advocate legal discrimination against homosexuals. So why are you accusing him of hating gay people?
I think it is wrong to recklessly gamble with non-expendable income, but I don't hate gambling addicts. I disagree with Robb about homosexuality being wrong, but I fail to see how he has shown to have hatred for anyone.
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Robb said that he does "not think same sex marriage is moral or right". And he did grant that a law against same sex marriage "is denying gay people equal protection of laws", and I commended him for that.
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that?
What if someone said that they believed the law as written protected peoples rights regardless of their skin color, but due to something written in a "holy" book, they personally believed that blacks were inferior and would, if that book were law, not be allowed to have the same basic rights as whites? Would you call that hateful and bigoted? What is the difference between those types of beliefs based on race vs. sexual orientation? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 04:55:05 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: | I never quoted Leviticus. |
Yeah, you did. Specifically when you were asked why you think homosexual marriage wrong, you wrote: | The Bible says that sex in marriage is good. It also says homosexual sex is an abomination. So how can homosexual sex in marriage be a good thing in Gods eyes? |
Referring to gay male sex (incidentally in the context of a bunch of other customary laws against ancient Pagan rituals) as an "abomination" only appears in the book of Leviticus, thus, you were quoting Leviticus when you wrote used the term "abomination" associated with what the Bible says about gays to defend your moral opposition to homosexual activity.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 05/21/2009 04:56:02 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 07:46:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
They're all sins for anyone, yes? And everyone is a sinner, yes?
So where do you think a homosexual who has accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior will go after death? Committing a sin doesn't erase the fact that one has been Saved, right? If no sin is worse than any other, then being actively gay is no worse than swiping a pencil from work. Get Born Again, all is forgiven, even if you keep sinning (which, as a human being, you must).
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I do agree that all sin is the same. My sins are no better or worse than a homosexuals sin. If a homosexual is saved by Jesus Christ they will not want to commit a homosexual act and will get out of a homosexual relationship to follow Jesus. They still may struggle with it, and fall into sin. But no one who understands what Jesus has done for us will want to or plan to sin.
I cannot say who is saved and who isn't. Each person needs to read and study 1 John to determine if they are true christians or not. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 07:52:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
The problem is that Robb believes that gays are sinning just by being themselves, and that they are hellbound for that reason (among other reasons, but even if they were otherwise perfect, they would still deserve hell). Where's the love in that? |
I believe I deserve hell for just being me. I lust, lie, covet etc and that's how I was born. I lust after women that are not my wife, I cannot totally control thoughts that comne into my mind of that nature. I deserve hell for that. Where is the difference for homosexuals?
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Same-sex marriage thoughts
