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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2009 : 00:09:09
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The claim is that suffers of lower back pain who used a course of acupuncture fared better than those who used only standard treatment. The claim further states that pokes with a toothpick instead of needles also worked. Even fake acupuncture helps back pain
People suffering from chronic low back pain who received acupuncture treatments fared better than those receiving only conventional care, according to a recent study published in the Archives of Internal Medicine.
Interestingly, the study also showed that people receiving simulated acupuncture-toothpicks were inserted instead of needles--also fared better than those receiving conventional care.
What gives?
Researchers wish they knew. But they still can't explain how acupuncture actually works. Only that it has been shown to elicit a positive effect.
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Uh-huh, right. The toothpick business (as well as the regular needles) smacks heavily of placebo effect.
So, do you see what evolution has done to us? By giving us a quadruped's spine, it has unleashed all sorts of quacks upon us. But I am looking forward to the results of "further research." Might be good for a chuckle.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Edited by - filthy on 05/12/2009 00:12:36
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 02:15:58 [Permalink]
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I think acupuncture, including fake acupuncture, works as much (or more) by triggering the release of endorphins as by the placebo effect. I may be wrong, but I suspect the marginal but real effect of acupuncture in reducing perceived pain would probably still be there without any belief by the patient in the efficacy of acupuncture.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2009 : 03:03:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think acupuncture, including fake acupuncture, works as much (or more) by triggering the release of endorphins as by the placebo effect. I may be wrong, but I suspect the marginal but real effect of acupuncture in reducing perceived pain would probably still be there without any belief by the patient in the efficacy of acupuncture.
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Possibly true; I don't know. I do know that sticking needles, or toothpicks, or whatever, into some poor bastard's head or feet, or wherever, isn't going to do much for his lumbar vertebra. It will, however, do a great deal for the acupuncturist's bank account.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 05:00:08 [Permalink]
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Having has a few acupuncture sessions myself, I peronally think there's more to it than just placebo.
The nervous system is very complex, and from time to time signals just circuits. Sometimes when I pinch myself in the left leg, I can feel a pinch in the skin of my back or the other leg or the arm, depending on where I originally pinched myself.
I propose that acupuncture is about finding the right spots to make those cross-connection-jumps stimulate the right places.
Once when woman performing the arcupunctre, she twisted a needle between my toes, and the neelde in my elbow started waving, even though I was totally relaxed I felt it involuntarily twitch. I've also felt responses from muscles that I do not normally have control over (intestines).
These are responses I cannot logically ascribe to merely placebo.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 05:02:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by HalfMooner
I think acupuncture, including fake acupuncture, works as much (or more) by triggering the release of endorphins as by the placebo effect. I may be wrong, but I suspect the marginal but real effect of acupuncture in reducing perceived pain would probably still be there without any belief by the patient in the efficacy of acupuncture.
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Possibly true; I don't know. I do know that sticking needles, or toothpicks, or whatever, into some poor bastard's head or feet, or wherever, isn't going to do much for his lumbar vertebra. It will, however, do a great deal for the acupuncturist's bank account.
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I have never tried acupuncture. I figure if anyone's going to puncture my skin, he or she ought to have an evidenced-based reason to do so -- and an autoclave to sterilize the needles.
That said, I have gotten enormous relief in the past for an aching back via shiatsu acupressure. I think the whole "theory" behind it, which is essentially identical to the mysticism behind acupuncture, is total bunk. But a shiatsu massage by a Japan-trained masseur or masseuse is a real and comforting operation, in my personal experience.
In many cases, non-traumatic backaches can be a vicious circle of negative feedback. First, some minor sprain causes pain, which tightens up the muscles, making any movement likely to cause more pain and tightness. A good massage (the best I've personally have had were shiatsu, but I'm sure others work) can get the muscles relaxed and break this feedback loop.
I once had a girlfriend who'd been suffering from lower back pain (with no known injury) for a couple of weeks. She was nearly immobile, walking hunched over in groaning pain. Despite her skepticism that it would help, I finally was able to convince her to visit a shiatsu spa on my dime. In just one hour with a hot-tub soak followed by shiatsu, all her pain was gone, and she was almost bouncing off the walls with joy. Her backache did not return in the next several weeks.
I know, like my own lesser but significant results, my girlfriend's experience is only anecdotal evidence; that is to say, no evidence at all. Neither of us had a slipped disk or any underlying spinal injury. (I would not recommend paying someone to walk on an injured back!) But that non-intrusive, affordable treatment worked for us, despite the Taoist mystical BS to which its functioning is attributed.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 07:53:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
despite the Taoist mystical BS to which its functioning is attributed.
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And herein lies a problem. Just because we realise the Taoist mystical explanation is bunk, doesn't mean that the effects (or at least some of them) are real. There's just some other explanation that currently escapes our probing.
In either case, HalfMooner's advice is perfectly sound: If you have a spine injury, go to a licenced medical facility in the first place. My experience is, just like HalfMooner's, anecdotal.
(edited spelling and formatting)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 05/12/2009 09:53:44 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 08:44:34 [Permalink]
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Yeah I consider the jury to still be out on this one. Even though the "science" behind it is pure bunk does not mean the affects are. There may very well be a perfectly good scientific explanation to it all.....we just don't know it.
Then again it may very well be a temporary relief do to the release of endorphins.
I've never had it done and I don't plan on it. But if it works for and you feel it's worth the entry fee then have at it. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 13:54:54 [Permalink]
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Well, I guess somebody's gotta do it and it might's well be me. Here's more than you, and indeed I, ever wanted to know about acupuncture. Acupuncture is thought to have originated in China, but its origins and early use are controversial (Basser 1999). Today, acupuncture, in one form or another, is practiced in dozens of countries by thousands of acupuncturists on millions of people and their animals.
People go to acupuncturists for treatment of AIDS, allergies, arthritis, asthma, Bell's palsy, bladder and kidney problems, breast enlargement, bronchitis, colds, constipation, cosmetics, depression, diarrhea, dizziness, drug addiction (cocaine, heroin), epilepsy, fatigue, fertility problems, fibromyalgia, flu, gynecologic disorders, headaches, high blood pressure, hot flushes, irritable bowel syndrome, migraines, nausea, nocturnal enuresis (bedwetting), pain, paralysis, post traumatic stress disorder, PMS, sciatica, sexual dysfunction, sinus problems, smoking, stress, stroke, tendonitis, vision problems, and just about anything else that might ail a human being.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 16:12:09 [Permalink]
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I read something on this a while back... can't find it now though. The gist was that for certain things (soft tissue pain, if i recall correctly) accupuncture had a statistically significant effect, more than can be explained by placebo.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:09:36 [Permalink]
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Acupuncture Does Not Work for Back Pain by Steven Novella
A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested - it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work.
But let me back up a minute. Imagine if we were evaluating the efficacy of a new pain drug. This drug, when tested in open trials (no blinding or control) has an effect on reducing pain - it is superior to no treatment. When compared to a placebo, however, the drug is no more effective than the placebo, although both are more effective than no treatment.
Now imagine that the pharmaceutical company who manufactures this drug sends out a press release declaring that their drug is effective for pain, but that their research shows that a placebo of their drug is also effective (FDA applications are pending). Therefore more research is needed to determine how their drug works. Would you buy it?
That is the exact situation we are facing with acupuncture research. |
Read on…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:26:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Acupuncture Does Not Work for Back Pain by Steven Novella
A new study which randomized 638 adults to either standard acupuncture, individualized acupuncture, placebo acupuncture using tooth picks that did not penetrate the skin, and standard therapy found exactly what previous evidence has also suggested - it does not seem to matter where you stick the needles or even if you stick the needles through the skin. The only reasonable scientific conclusion to draw from this is that acupuncture does not work.
But let me back up a minute. Imagine if we were evaluating the efficacy of a new pain drug. This drug, when tested in open trials (no blinding or control) has an effect on reducing pain - it is superior to no treatment. When compared to a placebo, however, the drug is no more effective than the placebo, although both are more effective than no treatment.
Now imagine that the pharmaceutical company who manufactures this drug sends out a press release declaring that their drug is effective for pain, but that their research shows that a placebo of their drug is also effective (FDA applications are pending). Therefore more research is needed to determine how their drug works. Would you buy it?
That is the exact situation we are facing with acupuncture research. |
Read on…
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I read on. Good write-up, Kil, indeed excellent, but don't worry; they're just tryin' to needle us. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:41:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I read on. Good write-up, Kil, indeed excellent, but don't worry; they're just tryin' to needle us.
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Ahhhh, leave it to you to get right to the point.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 12:23:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
I read on. Good write-up, Kil, indeed excellent, but don't worry; they're just tryin' to needle us.
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Ahhhh, leave it to you to get right to the point.
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Well, it was a pretty sharp article.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 12:43:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
I read on. Good write-up, Kil, indeed excellent, but don't worry; they're just tryin' to needle us.
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Ahhhh, leave it to you to get right to the point.
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Well, it was a pretty sharp article.
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And somewhat penetrating as well. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 13:14:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
I read on. Good write-up, Kil, indeed excellent, but don't worry; they're just tryin' to needle us.
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Ahhhh, leave it to you to get right to the point.
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Well, it was a pretty sharp article.
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And somewhat penetrating as well.
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Indeed, it stabbed to the very nerve of the matter.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 13:39:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by filthy
I read on. Good write-up, Kil, indeed excellent, but don't worry; they're just tryin' to needle us.
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Ahhhh, leave it to you to get right to the point.
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Well, it was a pretty sharp article.
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And somewhat penetrating as well.
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Indeed, it stabbed to the very nerve of the matter.
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Yup. It accurately punctured that myth. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Acupuncture..... with toothpicks?
