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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 17:33:30 [Permalink]
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I tend towards a libertarian left, so I agree with some of these ideas, but they never start with something like, "let's eliminate the corporate charter first." Or, "let's get national single-payer health care because government is so screwed up, it's keeping people in poverty." "When everyone is out of poverty because of the free market,then maybe we can look at ending programs for those that the present system leaves out." Or, "government is so screwed up, CEO's are making too much money." "Let's put a cap on that until the free market takes over."
NO, they have to start with "let's eliminate welfare and the minimum wage, and let's make old people sell their dentures for food." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 05/12/2009 17:34:51 |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
 Posted - 05/12/2009 : 18:58:29 [Permalink]
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There are too many simple minded boneheads around today, a legacy of the big corporation supported Bush years, who are brainwashed into believing all Federal government, (especially somewhat liberal-altruistic minded big government,) is evil and corrupt through and through.
The free individual is capable of a lot of great things but ultimately, when all is said and done, you can't have big projects without big government, including big companies. If we ever need to deflect an asteroid on a collision course, fight another Hitler, build a colony on Mars or the Moon, it won't get done with big government. (Hopefully a basically good government.) 
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 19:28:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
The free individual is capable of a lot of great things but ultimately, when all is said and done, you can't have big projects without big government, including big companies. If we ever need to deflect an asteroid on a collision course, fight another Hitler, build a colony on Mars or the Moon, it won't get done with big government. (Hopefully a basically good government.) |
Did you mean without big government?
The X Prizes are praised by some as a steak-through-the-heart of the "we need big government to do big things" vampire. Spaceship One was a demonstration of private citizens doing private things in a big way. Of course, as far as "big things" go, 100 km is no Moon shot. The question (which has yet to be answered) is, "how big can things get without government?" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 20:05:46 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | He thinks it's his wealth. That's the problem. No one does gets wealth alone. No one gets wealth without some kind of system, and no one goes without it without some kind of system. |
This statement and Humbert's fort analogy ring most true with me. Something is only one's "property" so long as one can maintain possession of it. Machi4velli, you brought up the issue that we're born into this fort rather than choosing to be part of it. But the reality is that if you want to accumulate the amount of wealth that is possible in modern, American, society, you need a pretty big fort. I don't think Libertarians like Shermer want to go hunt and grow their own food, build their own houses, and so on. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Marc Hauser's book "Moral Minds" which is about the biological development of a moral sense in human beings (not that we all have the same moral sense, but that we all a moral sense which fits within a certain predictable range, similar to language) touches a bit on the whole capitalist/socialist discussion. Surveys of people from different cultural backgrounds found that people consistently think it is unfair for everyone to get the same despite differing levels in various skills, but people also consistently think it is unfair for the least skillful (or most unlucky) to end up with not enough. If we look at hunter/gathering societies, they do indeed allow some of their group's members to achieve higher status and a great share of what modest wealth they possess, and those members earn it with their various social and other skills. But the old and sick and weak are awkward are always at least provided basic needs.
Shermer argues that Libertarians such as him aren't selfish, they simply want to choose what to donate their money to. If all taxes were eliminated, I wonder what percentage the average person would willfully contribute to various charities, projects, and whatnot, without chance of any personal return. Would we actually see that same amount of revenue donated? I doubt that. I wonder how many people of considerable means would contribute nothing or near-to-nothing.
I think people would tend to give to causes which they can relate to most, and if that is the case, the poor are really really screwed. I mean, more than usual. I just don't see a bunch of upper middle class and rich people deciding to contribute large sums of money to build schools, clinics, rec centers, libraries, and career assistance facilities in the ghetto. Unless they or people they know personally come from those places, which is rare.
I like having a government to decide how to spread out the taxes to better society. I know the elected and appointed officials are often corrupt or incompetent, but I don't know why they'd be any better if everything was privatized. They'd still be human beings running everything. And frankly, I don't want to have to decide where my donations should go. I'd likely just give way too much money to things that I personally find interesting rather than things which society really needs. I like having people whose job it is to make those decisions. That way I have more time to focus on my life and career. And if I want to make those decisions, then I just get a job in government doing that. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2009 : 22:28:05 [Permalink]
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Shermer:
The reason I find this troubling is not because I am not a liberal (although as noted above, I agree with liberals on many issues), but because most people think that the skeptical/humanist movement is (or should be) politically neutral. If it were, there would be roughly a 50/50 split of liberals and conservatives. |
I too think that the skeptical/humanist movement should be politically neutral. I don't really understand why he thinks it matters what percentage of us are conservative or liberal or libertarian for that matter. Furthermore, if we count conservatives and libertarians as both being fiscal conservatives, the split becomes a lot more even. But it still doesn't matter.
I would offer to him of this observation:
Stephen Colbert:
We know that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are thinking in 'reality'. And reality has a well-known liberal bias. |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 01:11:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Did you mean without big government? |
I don't think so. I was saying we cannot do big things (really really big things) without a big government. I agree with the caveat that individuals can still do great things, like Bert Rutan's spaceage designs.
Originally posted by Dave W.
The X Prizes are praised by some as a steak-through-the-heart of the "we need big government to do big things" vampire. Spaceship One was a demonstration of private citizens doing private things in a big way. Of course, as far as "big things" go, 100 km is no Moon shot. The question (which has yet to be answered) is, "how big can things get without government?"
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We might one day travel to space via privately designed, owned and operated spacecraft. But in terms of accomplishments requiring industry, building and maintaining a Moon base or an on-going funded expedition to Mars would require a national effort pulling in many government and government contracted private industries. Initially, for gigantic projects, big government funding would be necessary.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 04:29:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Chippewa
Originally posted by Dave W.
Did you mean without big government? |
I don't think so. I was saying we cannot do big things (really really big things) without a big government. |
Right. Your post above says that big things "won't get done with big government." You meant "without," like I thought. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 05:11:57 [Permalink]
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We might one day travel to space via privately designed, owned and operated spacecraft.
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We will not have done it without years of government funded research preceding it.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 08:43:03 [Permalink]
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| Parenthetically, I find it troubling that most atheists, agnostics, skeptics, free thinkers, humanists and secular humanists are liberal. |
On what forum would a "skeptic" get away with posting such a "fact" without some kind of supporting evidence, and some kind of definition of terms involved? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 09:27:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
| Parenthetically, I find it troubling that most atheists, agnostics, skeptics, free thinkers, humanists and secular humanists are liberal. |
On what forum would a "skeptic" get away with posting such a "fact" without some kind of supporting evidence, and some kind of definition of terms involved?
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Maybe he looked at SFN?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 11:11:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Maybe he looked at SFN?
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Well, if he'd read what I wrote, he'd be right instead of wrong. Unless Libertarians want to be wrong. I see it now. They just like to be wrong.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 14:57:02 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
I tend towards a libertarian left |
Isn't it anarchism? |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 16:25:06 [Permalink]
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| It is none of the government's business who I choose to help and give aid and charity to, and I find it deeply morally repugnant that bureaucratic agencies have the legal right to confiscate my wealth through force or the threat of force (taxes), launder my money and waste most of it to run the government organizations that process my money (with dollops allocated for paying for bridges to nowhere and prostitutes for politicians), and redistribute it to people who I do not know. Libertarians are not uncharitable selfish hedonists; we just want the freedom to choose. |
What this guy's missing-- and forgive me if I'm repeating points already made here-- is that he thinks that he earned his wealth in some sort of economic and social vacuum. As though the streets he drove to work on were made out of magic, or that the his employees' ability to read and write is some instinctual trait. As though this country defends itself through the skill of its Olympic swim team, etc.
And it's simply lazy to cite one or two bad actors in government and then conclude that "most" of government money is wasted on such things. Of course no one claims that the US is some sort of utopia and everyone agrees that there can be improvements. But the notion that a Libertarian government would be free of corruption and bad apples is sheer lunacy. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 16:29:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Gorgo
I tend towards a libertarian left |
Isn't it anarchism?
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Not really there, just tend towards it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Why Michael Shermer is a Libertarian
