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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2009 : 07:58:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
I went by wikipedia:
The Hominidae (anglicized Hominids, also known as great apes[notes 1]) form a taxonomic family, including four extant genera: chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangutans. |
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Right. Still not the same genus. But that's okay. Family is close enough for me. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 08:51:35 [Permalink]
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But ape ain't a genus...
Also, I found a slightly different version of the quote in another article:
| The researchers believe it comes from the time when the primate lineage, that diversified into monkeys, apes and ultimately humans |
that, to me, is consistent with the idea of human being their own branch budding off from the bigger 'ape' branch (remember that in modern classification, a term include all descendant, for example, we are considered to be fish). |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 09:30:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
But ape ain't a genus...
Also, I found a slightly different version of the quote in another article:
| The researchers believe it comes from the time when the primate lineage, that diversified into monkeys, apes and ultimately humans |
that, to me, is consistent with the idea of human being their own branch budding off from the bigger 'ape' branch (remember that in modern classification, a term include all descendant, for example, we are considered to be fish).
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Yeah, I'm basically agreeing with you at this point. Same family is good enough for me. That wasn't the case back in the 70's when I was learning this stuff. At the genus level we get into the identification of species. I went to far out on the limb? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:04:44 [Permalink]
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The classification might have changed since.
While I am not very familiar with the modification in the classification of humans, I think to recall that we are closer from chimps than initially thought (or found comfortable).
Basically it goes: Family > Genus > Species.
From a genus standpoint, we belong to the genus Homo which exclude Austrapithecus and paranthropus |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:46:21 [Permalink]
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Fear not, ICR is on the case! 'Missing Link' Ida Is Just Media Hype
Scientists and media outlets around the world are praising “Ida,” the primate fossil hailed as the long-sought-after “missing link” in the human evolutionary theory. In a major public relations campaign, Ida was unveiled in New York on May 19. BBC1 will air a documentary the same day as the fossil's UK unveiling on May 26, and Little, Brown has put out a book about the find. Even Google posted a special banner in Ida's honor.
But despite the hype, a whirlwind of questions still surrounds the discovery.
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Some snippage....
Ida, though an amazingly well-preserved fossil, will prove to be another Lucy, Java Man, Archaeopteryx, Confuciusornis, Pakicetus, and Eosimias. It will undoubtedly join the growing collection of fossils that were once thought to be missing links, but that upon further study turned out to be extinct creatures with no transitional features.
Look for more news soon on detailed analyses of Ida from ICR.
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Heh, I think not a little of this fossil's true value is in driving various big-name creationists batshit insane (or more so, at least). And this one looks to have legs; we'll get to be amused by their preposterous jaw-boning for some time to come.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 15:20:22 [Permalink]
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And a breathless squeak from that acclaimed evolutionary scientist & philosopher, Denyse O'Leary: Human evolution: The spin machine in top gear
O'Leary
For a fascinating misreading of what the recently announced Messel Pit fossil really shows, go here:
Scientists have found a 47-million-year-old human ancestor. Discovered in Messel Pit, Germany, the fossil, described as Darwinius masillae, is 20 times older than most fossils that explain human evolution.
That fossil doesn't “explain” human evolution; it complicates the picture.
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Yes, yes it does complicate matters a bit. It raises questions of evolutionary progression that only more research will answer, and those answers too, will raise yet more questions. It's the way science accumulates knowledge. But alas, creationists, even the ID sort of creationist-lite, just can't stand any questions at all. Anything not in their scripture, anything unknown, confuses them and causes them to rant meaningless apologetics. Sad, really. But funny. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2009 : 13:40:06 [Permalink]
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Ida hype and AiG hyperventilation.
For once, just this once and against my every instinct, I have to agree, at least a little, with AiG. This fossil has been way over-covered by idiots in the media. So-called “missing link” Ida hit the media in a major way on Tuesday of this week, with even search engine Google falling prey to the hype and modifying its search page banner to show Ida. We quickly responded with a full article, Ida: the Missing Link at Last?
Yet within a few hours of the unveiling of the fossil—coordinated to coincide with the publication of the scientific paper on Ida—some better media outlets began to report some worrying things about the research. It seems as though the scientific process had been rushed and the claims exaggerated in a bid to promote a new documentary and book on the fossil. Sadly, media pressures sometimes trump full research integrity (something we've seen before), and careless media sources reprint explosive (and unjustified) quotations without consulting as many scientists as they should. Thankfully, though, many in the scientific community are questioning the research and beginning to become more vocal about their concerns regarding how good science and media aren't the best mix.
But don't just take our word for it—read these amazing excerpts that reveal the Ida hype for what it truly is.
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I don't see much amazing about the excerpts, but they are worth a read.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 19:32:24 [Permalink]
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http://www.history.com/content/the-link
History channel documentary.... filled with excess hype.
How hard is it to get people to understand that ALL fossils, all species (extinct and extant), are "transitional" forms? The only difference being that the transitions happen in shorter time frames when the environment changes rapidly, and slower in times of stability.
Oh, wait, nvrmnd.... there are still people who refuse to accept the fact of evolution at all. Dunno why I would expect reporting and commentary on this topic to reflect reality. Maybe I'm secretly (to myself even) an optimist.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 07:02:07 [Permalink]
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| Today's Slate had an interesting article about the critter and, more importantly, the hype surrounding it. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2009 : 02:42:38 [Permalink]
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Ok, we've all had a lot of fun watching the YECs & the media get the vapors & fantods over Darwinius. We've all listened to paeans of joy & hosanna from it's managers (for lack of a better word). It is a magnificent specimen, no doubt about that, but does it really warrant all the excessive, really, verbiage? I am having doubts.
Putting aside the condition of the fossil, which is admittedly superb, one begins to realize that there is little reason for any more than mild excitement among the geologic sciences and "how 'bout that shit?!" amongst the laity. This is not a "missing link," an asinine term to start with, but an unsupported, single fossil from 47 million years past. Nor, as it is but a single specimen, does it say a whole lot about primate lineage. Hell, it might not even be directly in that lineage, having branched off and died out early. As has been stated, ad nauseum, more study and specimens are needed before any more than a sparse few, definitive statements can be made with confidence. And the chance looms large that those statements might never be forthcoming, the fossil record being the piecemeal that it is.
This animal, or one rather like it, was predicted by the ToE as far back as Darwin, as were such critters as Tiktaalik, Toumai and many others -- so what's all the shouting about?
I think everyone concerned is on some sort of an ego trip (lookit me, I finded a really neat rock!) and it's beginning to bore hell out of me.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 16:59:16 [Permalink]
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| If thay's so, it makes sense. There are always going to be a hell of a lot more missing dead-end species than there are ancestral "missing links." |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Darwinius masillae
