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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2009 : 05:43:37
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ICR has turned it's fractured & scriptured attention to the Spiny Echidna, one of two monotremes and a truly amazing creature. What did the poor beast do to deserve such abuse? And as usual, they swipe the honest research of a scientist to do it. Egg-laying Echidna Could Not Have Evolved
by Brian Thomas, M.S.*
A research intern for the Wildlife Conservation Society, Muse Opiang, completed the first field study ever conducted on the long-beaked echidna, an egg-laying mammal found only in New Guinea.1 Representing four years and 6,000 man-hours of work, Opiang's field observations include a catalog of dwellings and habits that befit an animal clearly formed with a collection of mosaic features, characteristics shared by various creatures that have been unified into a functional whole.
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So far, so good. Mr. Opiang seems to have his act together. But wait...
| The adult Eastern Long-beaked Echidna possesses a slender, pointed snout used to poke holes in the ground to search for subterranean meals. The echidna has very effective digging claws, and has coarse hair and spines similar to an anteater's. However, it lays eggs like most reptiles, and has a reptile-like “sprawling gait” and a single opening that releases both waste and gametes. The features in monotremes, a category that includes both echidnas and platypuses, have “forced zoologists to change their very definitions of what a mammal is.”2 |
Bolding mine.
Oh? How so? Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the term "Mammal" refers to the mammary glands, which all mammals possess be they whales, bats, or yes, monotremes. And echidnas do not use their snouts to "poke holes." They dig the hole and snuffle around in it for bugs. The snout is much too delicate for "poking." I find myself losing faith in Mr. Thomas' knowledge and understanding of natural history.
OK, this tears it; Thomas is as full of shit as a Christmas turkey! | The strange combination of mammalian and reptilian features may defy a Darwinian description of origins, but they fit perfectly with a Creator who is able to shape living forms with whatever features He wants them to have. All indications point to echidnas being uniquely created to live as underground nocturnal creatures and to reproduce only more echidnas. Hopefully, the fruits of this groundbreaking and painstakingly-obtained research will help ensure that echidnas continue to thrive, since they are such marvelous manifestations from the mind of their Maker. |
This is an excellent example of exactly how ICR, et al., bend and twist the research of others (they do none of their own) to suit their needs. The monotremes are examples of transitional species that had manages to survive in isolation and thus change little over evolutionary time. The fact that there are only the two shows that others were not so fortunate, for way-back-when, all of the earliest mammals were thus -- tough, little egg-layers, and with a cloaca just like your pet rattlesnake. Some evolved into the ancestors of today's mammals, others, indeed most, died out.
Man, you've got to have brain damage to buy ICR's idiocy.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2009 : 07:34:47 [Permalink]
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Well, you knew that these idiots get their "data" from press releases. Footnote #2, right after your bolding, points to this WCS press release, which includes this:The long-beaked echidna is found only in New Guinea and is a member of the monotremes, a primitive order of mammals that forced zoologists to change their very definitions of what a mammal is. Unlike all other mammals, monotremes like the echidna (also called the spiny anteater) and the better known platypus lay eggs. Of course, we've known for decades that monotremes lay eggs, yet are mammals. So "forced" is properly in the past tense. But the press release (and the ICR) make it sound like the "definition of mammal" changed last night. Really, it changed when naturalists first went to Australia and New Guinea (my impression of the first one to set foot there: "WTF is that?!").
Oh, and the WCS press release also refers to "nose-pokes (when the echidna pokes its tube-like snout in the soil in search of invertebrate prey)." Mr. Opiang is probably the world's foremost expert on long-beaked echidnas right now. If he told the WCS that echidnas do that, then I'd give him the benefit of a doubt. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/24/2009 : 08:37:03 [Permalink]
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I think that it was poor wording on Mr. Opiang's part or, more likely, careless writing. If the soil is soft and loamey, like your garden perhaps, but hunting arthropods in anything else is another bucket of bugs. Like the anteaters, they have an excellent sense of smell and that nose is tender. It's also relativly short and the echidna is a prodigious digger. (my impression of the first one to set foot there: "WTF is that?!").
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Ain't no doubt about it!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 06/24/2009 08:40:58 |
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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 07:39:26 [Permalink]
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Enchiladas don't care what our rulebook says about how to define a mammal. I don't think our handy categories have anything to do with how organisms evolve and diversify.
Anyhow, it's not a big stretch to imagine that a mammal can revert back to egg-laying. It seems like a simple series of adaptations, made one gene at a time (as they all are).
I love these arguments based on "I can't see how..." (argumentum ad ignorantum) They give us a thrilling variety of stories, such as how "the pyramids were built by aliens" -or how a "magical" being "magically" created the world, "magically-speaking."
After more than 4 centuries of scientific practice, transforming "magical" explanations into scientific ones, you'd almost think everyone would have lost all faith in the magical ones.
No such luck. |
God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2009 : 07:56:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I think that it was poor wording on Mr. Opiang's part or, more likely, careless writing. If the soil is soft and loamey, like your garden perhaps, but hunting arthropods in anything else is another bucket of bugs. Like the anteaters, they have an excellent sense of smell and that nose is tender. It's also relativly short and the echidna is a prodigious digger. (my impression of the first one to set foot there: "WTF is that?!").
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Ain't no doubt about it!
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Hey if it didn't work, it wouldn't have evolved that way. I doubt any intelligence could "design" any creature that could survive for very long on it's own in the natural ecosystem. Even our domesticated plants and animals would be ill-equipped to compete against their wild ancestors in the wild, and would likely perish within a few decades. Evolution walks a very fine line that no conceivable intelligence could walk.
I think the Australian Dingo is an exception to that rule. When humans first brought that placental mammal to that continent many millennia ago (probably as lunch in their boats), it had such an advantage over the relatively primitive marsupial mammals, and it quickly found a successful niche for itself, and reverted largely back towards it's wild ancestry. |
God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
| Edited by - Landrew on 07/03/2009 07:58:56 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 09:11:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Landrew
Enchiladas don't care what our rulebook says about how to define a mammal. I don't think our handy categories have anything to do with how organisms evolve and diversify. |
Actually, the linean classification has held surprisingly well and has been, at least in higher organisms, confirmed by the finding of modern molecular biology.
Anyhow, it's not a big stretch to imagine that a mammal can revert back to egg-laying. It seems like a simple series of adaptations, made one gene at a time (as they all are).
No such luck.
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Hmmm... At this point, I would think that it is actually quite a big deal, there are a lot of genes that has been lost. I don't know if they still are there, just inactive, of have been diluted away.
The fact is, monotreme, are actually, as the ICR rubbish itself mentions primitive mammals.
They show an intermediate stage that evolution took on the way to our internal gestation and as such are actually an evidence for evolution. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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knightmare
New Member
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 10:01:49 [Permalink]
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| Hmmm... At this point, I would think that it is actually quite a big deal, there are a lot of genes that has been lost. I don't know if they still are there, just inactive, of have been diluted away. |
According to the book, "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin:
| Humans devote about 3 percent of our genome to odor genes, just like every other mammal. |
| ...fully three hundred of these thousand genes are rendered completely functionless by mutations that have altered their structure beyond repair. |
My understanding is that the genes become inactive over time. In the case above, we became more dependent on sight then scent and, although we still have them, they eventually became inactive.
I don't know about other mammals, but I would guess it's the same way.
Laters |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 12:06:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Landrew
Enchiladas don't care what our rulebook... |
Think they care about our cook books?
Couldn't resist, even if you did it deliberately. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 13:24:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by knightmare
| Hmmm... At this point, I would think that it is actually quite a big deal, there are a lot of genes that has been lost. I don't know if they still are there, just inactive, of have been diluted away. |
According to the book, "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin:
| Humans devote about 3 percent of our genome to odor genes, just like every other mammal. |
| ...fully three hundred of these thousand genes are rendered completely functionless by mutations that have altered their structure beyond repair. |
My understanding is that the genes become inactive over time. In the case above, we became more dependent on sight then scent and, although we still have them, they eventually became inactive.
I don't know about other mammals, but I would guess it's the same way.
Laters
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If ya don't use it, yer gonna lose it. Cave fish eyes, whale & python pelvis', the second lung in all snakes, and our very own, stubby little coxycs, if I've spelled that right, are prime examples.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 14:49:13 [Permalink]
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Some of those "useless" genes, too mutated to do anything, eventually become mutated yet again and take on whole new functions.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2009 : 14:58:23 [Permalink]
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Genes progressively accumulate mutations, many of which render them inactive.
If the inactivated gene is vital for the organism, the mutant individual won't be able to survive. If the gene is not so important anymore, the population will do fine without, in fact, the economy resulting from no longer expressing this unnecessary gene will give them a small but real boost.
Hence, "use it or lose" is a reasonably accurate description of the process. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2009 : 09:31:37 [Permalink]
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| Large arrays of genes can be lost in one fell swoop sometimes, usually however this results in a fatality in the womb. It seems a stretch for a mammal to suddenly revert to egg-laying. I'm more in favor of the theory that either the echidna is a holdover from a time when all mammals laid eggs, or it evolved slowly back to egg-laying slowly over time. |
God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2009 : 09:53:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Landrew
I'm more in favor of the theory that either the echidna is a holdover from a time when all mammals laid eggs, or it evolved slowly back to egg-laying slowly over time. |
It's not just egg-laying. Monotremes pee, poop and lay their eggs all out of the same hole, just like reptiles, and completely unlike any placental mammal. It suggests "holdover" much more than "reversion." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2009 : 15:45:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Landrew
Large arrays of genes can be lost in one fell swoop sometimes, usually however this results in a fatality in the womb. It seems a stretch for a mammal to suddenly revert to egg-laying. I'm more in favor of the theory that either the echidna is a holdover from a time when all mammals laid eggs, or it evolved slowly back to egg-laying slowly over time.
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It is a holdover and well recognized as such.
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Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2009 : 19:15:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Simon
Originally posted by Landrew
Large arrays of genes can be lost in one fell swoop sometimes, usually however this results in a fatality in the womb. It seems a stretch for a mammal to suddenly revert to egg-laying. I'm more in favor of the theory that either the echidna is a holdover from a time when all mammals laid eggs, or it evolved slowly back to egg-laying slowly over time.
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It is a holdover and well recognized as such.
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That's the consensus? Is it based on conjecture or is there evidence in the fossil record to support that theory? |
God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2009 : 20:11:55 [Permalink]
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lan-troll-drew said:
It seems like a simple series of adaptations, made one gene at a time (as they all are).
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I think you lack knowledge of basic genetics.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Argumentum ad ignorantum -- the willful sort.
