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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/12/2009 : 05:21:08
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Y'know, I think I've been jumping into AiG's shit at least as long as PZ and maybe a little longer. One thing that has impressed me is that they have any PhDs on staff at all. Well, here's the explanation -- first I'll state that merely having some esoteric letters behind a name does not make that person a scientist. Dr. Jason Lisle (Doctorate in Astronomy), for example, does not publish nor work in his field of research, and therefore is not a scientist.
Anyhow, here's how it's done as told by an expert:
I can say from experience that being a biblical creationist at a secular college has its challenges. In addition to the normal academic pressures faced by all students, the consistent Christian must learn to be discerning about the views and interpretations expressed by his or her professors. This requires extra research as well as time (a valuable commodity while in college!). Such intellectual challenges occur in the midst of a social environment that is hostile to Christianity.
Many Christian parents are concerned that such a secular environment may lead their children to walk away from the Church. This concern is justified, since studies have shown that around two out of three Christian students from conservative churches will leave the church when they become adults.
Already Gone
First of all, our research shows that the problem starts much earlier than college. Nearly 90% of those students who leave the church have already begun to doubt God's Word by the time they graduate from high school. Although they may continue to attend church with their parents, spiritually they are already gone.
Most Christian teenagers do not understand how the Bible connects to the “real world.” They have been taught “Bible stories,” but they have not been shown how the Bible's history explains the evidence around us—from biology and geology to astronomy. Conversely, public schools use their evolutionary version of history to interpret the present world. So, students are inclined to think that the secular version of history they learned in public school is real, whereas the Bible is just a collection of interesting stories.
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This is probably at least pretty close to the fact. Many students go into college deeply religious and come out as only casual believers at best.
4. Remaining Silent
Finally, I would recommend that students of science use discretion when talking about creation. Specifically, they should not (in most circumstances) let their professors know that they believe in creation if at all possible. This does not mean that they should lie; rather, it means that they should not volunteer that information.
The reason for this is that some science professors are so emotionally against creation that they will not be fair with a creationist student: not assigning a fair grade, not giving them a good letter of recommendation, etc., no matter how deserving the student may be. There are documented cases of people being expelled for expressing a belief in biblical creation. This is particularly the case for students studying for a PhD in biology, geology, or astronomy.
Many students come to the classroom with the noble, but misguided, sentiment: “I'm going to convert all my evolutionist professors into creationists.” First of all, it's not within our ability to convert people (1 Corinthians 3:6–7). That is the prerogative of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to sanctify Christ as Lord and always be ready to respectfully give a defense of the faith to anyone who asks (1 Peter 3:15).
For the most part, professors are not going to ask; they are not interested in the opinions of their students.2 Sharing biblical creation with them would be like c
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 07:01:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Lisle
The reason for this is that some science professors are so emotionally against creation that they will not be fair with a creationist student: not assigning a fair grade, not giving them a good letter of recommendation, etc., no matter how deserving the student may be. There are documented cases of people being expelled for expressing a belief in biblical creation. This is particularly the case for students studying for a PhD in biology, geology, or astronomy. |
Name one, doc. The word "expelled" being linked to the AiG store selling the movie Expelled doesn't count, because it doesn't document a single student "being expelled for expressing a belief in biblical creation" (nor does it document any faculty being censured for their beliefs, either). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 09:29:50 [Permalink]
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| If a student wants to write a paper on creation for a creation journal like the Answers Research Journal, he or she should use a pen name. This is perfectly acceptable and is commonly used even in secular literature (e.g., Mark Twain). |
Um, Samuel Clemens could use "Mark Twain" because he was writing fiction. He wasn't writing scholarly papers for scientific journals. If AiG's "journal" uses pseudonymous authors, that's problematical.
Oh, that's right: Answers Research Journal isn't a scholarly research journal. It's a fantasy fiction review.
It really bothers me that these guys are conspiring with Fundy students by giving detailed tips on how to defraud tax-supported secular universities, and taking up classroom space that could be filled by students who really want to be scientists, by pretending to learn science. Perhaps the universities should try to find out who these faux students are, and then pretend to give them degrees in science.
Dr. Jason Lisle should be investigated for any fraud in the circumstances of how he received his own education, and for seemingly conspiring to aid others in ripping off taxpayers.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 09:58:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
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| first I'll state that merely having some esoteric letters behind a name does not make that person a scientist. |
Could not agree with you here anymore then I all ready do.
I would go on to say that even with having some esoteric letters behind a name the person could still be completely and totally wrong on a topic which falls in the realm of their esoteric letters.
There was once a time in the TDF where the riders would light up a smoke before a big climb in the mountains because the "trainers" of the day believed this was a stimulant for performance. Nobody even gave it a second thought because these guys were the "experts".
Today it looks rather amusing to see the old black and white photos of the riders enjoying a smoke atop their bike ahead of the big climb. Could you picture Lance Armstrong whipping out a Lucky Strike and asking someone for a light in the middle of the stage.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 08/12/2009 10:07:46 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 11:23:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Originally posted by filthy
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| first I'll state that merely having some esoteric letters behind a name does not make that person a scientist. |
Could not agree with you here anymore then I all ready do.
I would go on to say that even with having some esoteric letters behind a name the person could still be completely and totally wrong on a topic which falls in the realm of their esoteric letters.
There was once a time in the TDF where the riders would light up a smoke before a big climb in the mountains because the "trainers" of the day believed this was a stimulant for performance. Nobody even gave it a second thought because these guys were the "experts".
Today it looks rather amusing to see the old black and white photos of the riders enjoying a smoke atop their bike ahead of the big climb. Could you picture Lance Armstrong whipping out a Lucky Strike and asking someone for a light in the middle of the stage.
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Hi Bill and thanks! Coming from you, that's high praise indeed -- I am not being facetious!
But y'see, that's one way science works. it takes a set of, well, call them, "poplar beliefs" for lack of a better term, and through often tedious study, either confirms or corrects them. Unfortunately, that correction is often ignored or discarded, but it remains in science as a truth nevertheless. Truth can and does come back to bite us for ignoring it, every now and again.
Anyhow, welcome back!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 12:37:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
Could you picture Lance Armstrong whipping out a Lucky Strike and asking someone for a light in the middle of the stage. |
Heh-heh! Maybe on the Tour de A Couple of Blocks of Paris, but certainly not on the Tour de France.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 13:56:26 [Permalink]
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I agree, a title in itself means little, that'd be argument from authority.
IT gives you an idea that the guy is more likely to speak from a position of knowledge than somebody that never studied the field but, optimally, you should check each clam individually (and I believe it also works the other way around, as mentioned in the 'ad hominem thread).
If you don't have the time and knowledge to check the claim yourself, odds are the consensus from the scientific body is more likely to be correct (and the scientific body rarely hesitates to mentions when their conclusions are fragile and based on a weal body of evidence).
If you can't access the literature, odds are the particular expert you have available will be a representative sample for the scientific consensus, but we are getting further away from the ideal.
Also, one must keep in mind that Science always is provisional and self-correcting. It indicates where the evidences point, at this moment in time. It can always be proven wrong at a later time, but it is the best we have at any given time. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 19:16:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
...first I'll state that merely having some esoteric letters behind a name does not make that person a scientist. |
Exactly. The word 'science' is a verb, it is something you do. If you're not doing science then you're not a scientist. I suspect a lot of those people did their university work with their fingers crossed and then dropped the pretense when they went out into the world.
And that, if I recall correctly, personifies the term 'phony bastards'. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
| Edited by - The Rat on 08/12/2009 19:17:33 |
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Simon
SFN Regular
USA
1992 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 19:29:09 [Permalink]
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| Case in point: Demski does have valid letters behind his name. Yet, he gave up science and drank the apologetist/ID cool-aid. |
Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
Carl Sagan - 1996 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2009 : 22:59:40 [Permalink]
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Paleontologist Jack Horner doesn't have any non-honorary degrees.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 08/12/2009 23:00:43 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 02:52:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Paleontologist Jack Horner doesn't have any non-honorary degrees.
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And he is very damned good at what he does!
Here is the other side of the coin:
Fundamentalist Christian Candidate for Tulsa Mayor Makes Creationism Exhibit at Local Zoo Priority # 1
Submitted by meg on Wed, 08/12/2009 - 1:15pm. Analysis
BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS
by Meg White
Anyone who's done their time in journalism school delights in a good lead paragraph, and I'm no exception. In that spirit (and because I simply couldn't say it better myself), I present this gem from Brian Barber, a staff writer at Tulsa World:
Republican mayoral candidate Anna Falling said Tuesday that putting a Christian creationism display in the Tulsa Zoo is No. 1 in importance among city issues that include violent crime, budget woes and bumpy streets.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2009 : 02:58:06 [Permalink]
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Filthy quoted Answers-in-Genesis:
| This does not mean that they should lie; rather, it means that they should not volunteer that information. |
Is that what people commonly refers to as "Lie by Omission"?
| There are documented cases of people being expelled for expressing a belief in biblical creation. This is particularly the case for students studying for a PhD in biology, geology, or astronomy. |
I'd like to see evidence of that.
| Many students come to the classroom with the noble, but misguided, sentiment: “I'm going to convert all my evolutionist professors into creationists.” |
And who's fault is that? Hint: read this link. (hat-tip to Filthy)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/13/2009 : 03:22:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Filthy quoted Answers-in-Genesis:
| This does not mean that they should lie; rather, it means that they should not volunteer that information. |
Is that what people commonly refers to as "Lie by Omission"?
| There are documented cases of people being expelled for expressing a belief in biblical creation. This is particularly the case for students studying for a PhD in biology, geology, or astronomy. |
I'd like to see evidence of that.
| Many students come to the classroom with the noble, but misguided, sentiment: “I'm going to convert all my evolutionist professors into creationists.” |
And who's fault is that? Hint: read this link. (hat-tip to Filthy)
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That was sort of prescient, wasn't it? But indeed, the Atheist Professor theme floats through it from start to finish.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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How do they do it?
