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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2009 : 03:57:29 [Permalink]
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But in the long run, this entire thread is moot. The ultimate fate of all species, including our own, is extinction.
I figger whaddahell, if the family wants some sort of hideous blowout for the recently-created corpse, fine. Spread the bread, that corpse is in no position to care.
I am reminded of some of the mob funerals of not so long ago. Vast expense, and for what? The thug ain't coming back, so the only material benefit was to the funeral director and his crew. And it is thought, not without some justification, that some of the attendees might have been responsible for the current condition of said thug.
I am further reminded of a couple of cemeteries that were digging up the dearly departed, tossing them into the woods, and selling their cherished hole to a new dearly departed's family. I found that humorous, in a ghoulish sort of way.
Ah, funerals. As I travel the roads around my digs, I occasionally see a small, tidy sign saying: SLOW FUNERAL, with the mortuary's name in small, tasteful lettering either under it or on it's reverse side. And I always think: damn!, slow funerals are the very worst kind!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2009 : 04:07:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote:
I don't have much patience for most of the money wasted on churches, Christmas or dead people. |
Again, the money spent isn't for the dead people. It is for the mourners. And seeing as they're the ones making the decision to spend the money, I don't see why they should give a damn what other people think.
If we are going to get judgmental about the money people spend to commemorating their loved ones who have passed on, then why aren't we getting judgmental about other forms of excessive spending by people of above-average means on things such as expensive clothing and accessories? Nobody needs a three thousand dollar suit or hand bag. Nobody needs a $400. haircut. But people do spend that sort of money on themselves, and I don't hear anybody complaining that the sales people are taking advantage.
This isn't comparable to spending money on religion or other woo because in those cases the "product" doesn't actually exist. But coffins and $400.00 underwear do exist. And I challenge anyone who judges those who spend money on those things to demonstrate that they've never spent money in a way that would have seemed silly and wasteful to others.
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You're right about funerals being for the living. There may be some benefit to the brain to have some kind of ritual to let go of some person that you're close to, I don't know.
I don't give a damn if they don't give a damn what I think, I'm not making it illegal for them to waste their money, I just think it's a waste of money. Yes, I waste money as well. It may be that I've wasted more than they have without knowing it, but it is my opinion that these things are a waste.
I'm not judging the people, they can do what they want, within the law, and risk the consequences if they don't act within the law. I'm judging the society that makes it almost necessary for us to be this way. Yes, I said "us."
And it is the same as religion, churches exist, and they are built based on delusions. Christmas, churches and expensive funerals are a waste, in my opinion, and equally built on delusions. In my opinion. Do we need a church on every corner? Didn't you ever wonder why they can't share a building? Many of them are unused most of the week. Now they cost millions to build and they're still building them. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/28/2009 05:04:59 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 10:00:54 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | You're right about funerals being for the living. There may be some benefit to the brain to have some kind of ritual to let go of some person that you're close to, I don't know. |
Oh for crap's sake - are we going to start trying to scientifically measure the benefit that people get from buying expensive collector's items or art, wildly expensive gourmet meals or designer clothing?
| I don't give a damn if they don't give a damn what I think, I'm not making it illegal for them to waste their money, I just think it's a waste of money. Yes, I waste money as well. It may be that I've wasted more than they have without knowing it, but it is my opinion that these things are a waste. |
Yeah, I get that nobody in this thread is suggesting that it be made illegal to spend a lot on memorial services. What I'm responding to is the tone of superiority that many here seem to be expressing, as if they are some how superior because of their frugal opinions on this matter. Gee, let's start a thread to rip on people who collect stamps, and one to rip on people who spend a lot of money on restoring old cars. After all, it could be just as easily argued that those things are a "waste" of money.
| I'm not judging the people, they can do what they want, within the law, and risk the consequences if they don't act within the law. I'm judging the society that makes it almost necessary for us to be this way. Yes, I said "us." |
Unless a gun is being held to their heads, people are responsible for their own spending. Society does not make it "necessary" for people do anything. There are funeral homes who have dramatically reduced packages and some who even do cremation for free for families who cannot afford the costs of dealing with the body. Many states have funds to help out families who can't afford the cost of dealing with the body. Often the costs associated with a death causes working class communities, united by family ties, a local religious institution, or ethnic heritage, will band together to raise money to pay cremation or embalming and for a burial plot and such. Obviously whenever someone dies there is the practical matter of a body to be dealt with. And while lots of people on this forum have casually expressed their desires to be placed in some wild natural setting to decompose naturally, that is simply not practical nor is it completely safe and sanitary. Obviously somebody has to pay to have something done with the body. And I'm sorry, but even thought he person is dead, most people who loved the living person are going to have strong feelings about how that corpse is disposed of. Every human society in history has had some tradition of how to dispose of bodies in a dignified manner. Hell, there is evidence of Homo erectus even burying their dead with flowers - and this is often cited as evidence of their closeness to modern humans in their ability for abstract and symbolic thinking. And if a poorer community bands together to raise money to pay for a funeral, is there not a social benefit in that these social ties and their ability to productively organize is strengthened?
The costs beyond disposal of the body can be quite minimal, and I've been to enough modest memorial services which didn't include any viewing or catering. People can and do organize very nice memorial services on the cheap, and I've never heard anybody complain, "They should have spent more money. They obviously didn't care enough about their dead grandma."
| And it is the same as religion, churches exist, and they are built based on delusions. Christmas, churches and expensive funerals are a waste, in my opinion, and equally built on delusions. In my opinion. Do we need a church on every corner? Didn't you ever wonder why they can't share a building? |
I worked for 2 years at a Quaker school which had started in a Lutheran church basement and they still had a relationship with that church - conducting many event there and using the church's parking lot for overflow parking. The Carl Sagan Academy - a secular humanist charter school in Florida - also started in the basement of a church. The Unitarian Universalist Church here in Philly is booked solid every weekend for concerts. So in fact they do often share.
| Many of them are unused most of the week. Now they cost millions to build and they're still building them. |
Most churches are not megachurches. Also, plenty of churches with dwindling congregations and funds have closed and the buildings get turned into something else. In fact, that Quaker school I worked for eventually got its own building - an old Catholic church.
I'm still trying to figure out how money spent on promises of things which don't exist are comparable to money spent on material things which clearly do exist. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/28/2009 10:05:17 |
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Rubicon95
Skeptic Friend
USA
220 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:01:34 [Permalink]
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1)What to you think about funerals in general?
It is a way of paying respects. Final goodbyes. and if you are Irish..one heck of a party.
2)What to you think about the funeral industry in America?
Grossly obscene --- when my mother died, the funeral director was an A$$. He was talking about the pricing, fees and packages. I questioned him on it. His retort was every since some law was past they were making more money than ever.
This was the day after my mother died. I wanted to hurt him.
We went with Eternal Reefs. After the cremation, the ashes are combined with concrete to create a reef ball. That is then placed in areas around the oceanfront that need coral build up. |
| Edited by - Rubicon95 on 08/28/2009 11:35:50 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:10:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Yeah, I get that nobody in this thread is suggesting that it be made illegal to spend a lot on memorial services. What I'm responding to is the tone of superiority that many here seem to be expressing, as if they are some how superior because of their frugal opinions on this matter. Gee, let's start a thread to rip on people who collect stamps, and one to rip on people who spend a lot of money on restoring old cars. After all, it could be just as easily argued that those things are a "waste" of money.
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Hmmm, I think we are on different wavelengths. I'm referring to the very large number of people who get taken advantage of because they did not plan ahead. Their fault? Maybe....but that's still no reason to be preyed on by the funeral industry. I have seen time and time again were people are pushed to purchase the more expensive coffins (etc....) and made to feel guilty if they even consider the less expensive options. It happens A LOT.
I also think that the average amount of money spent on funerals is a bit outrageous. I also think that most people never really look into these costs......they just give it the ol' "it is what it is".
Now locally (I live in a VERY small town) the funeral owner is a very nice gentleman. As far as I can tell he does operate in a shady fashion. He is also one of the richest men in town. (Which, good for him I guess.....I'd take it). It's the shady ones I hate and there appear to be far to many of those....at least for my taste.
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 08/28/2009 11:13:39 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:37:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
And further, that if possible, I would like a party at a golf course, where I would be propped up with a beer in one hand and a cigar in the other, while the guests would enjoy food and drink. After that, have me cremated and the ashes scattered in a sand trap where I could be of service to the living.
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"Weekend at Bernie's"
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 11:44:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by R.Wreck
And further, that if possible, I would like a party at a golf course, where I would be propped up with a beer in one hand and a cigar in the other, while the guests would enjoy food and drink. After that, have me cremated and the ashes scattered in a sand trap where I could be of service to the living.
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"Weekend at Bernie's"
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You see! That really shouldn't be a funny movie (on so many levels)......but IT IS a funny movie. (And I can't explain why). |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:49:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote: | You're right about funerals being for the living. There may be some benefit to the brain to have some kind of ritual to let go of some person that you're close to, I don't know. |
Oh for crap's sake - are we going to start trying to scientifically measure the benefit that people get from buying expensive collector's items or art, wildly expensive gourmet meals or designer clothing?
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That would be wild wouldn't it? What would they even call a study of people and what they do and think? That would be crazy. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:52:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Unless a gun is being held to their heads, people are responsible for their own spending. |
Society has no influence on individual behavior, then. Interesting. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 08/28/2009 12:56:20 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:55:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
In fact, that Quaker school I worked for eventually got its own building - an old Catholic church.
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Summary: You worked for some Quakers, not all churches are megachurches, some churches have uses other than those that are silly, and therefore land and buildings are cheap, and all churches are used 24/7 for productive purposes. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 12:58:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknoxThe costs beyond disposal of the body can be quite minimal, and I've been to enough modest memorial services which didn't include any viewing or catering. People can and do organize very nice memorial services on the cheap, and I've never heard anybody complain, "They should have spent more money. They obviously didn't care enough about their dead grandma."
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So, therefore you would encourage people to spend 40 grand on headstones. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 14:15:12 [Permalink]
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astropin wrote: | I'm referring to the very large number of people who get taken advantage of because they did not plan ahead. Their fault? Maybe....but that's still no reason to be preyed on by the funeral industry. I have seen time and time again were people are pushed to purchase the more expensive coffins (etc....) and made to feel guilty if they even consider the less expensive options. It happens A LOT. |
You are only pointing to things you claim to have personally witnessed. But you are not pointing to any hard evidence that the funeral industry creates a real social problem in this country (such as by putting people deep into debt.) The average cost of a funeral has been trending down for years and even moreso since the economic downturn. This suggests to me that people's personal finances are a greater factor than their level of grief in making decisions about how to deal with the body and memorial service of a loved-one. Where is your evidence that people are overwhelming acting irrational to the point of harming themselves or others?
| I also think that the average amount of money spent on funerals is a bit outrageous. I also think that most people never really look into these costs......they just give it the ol' "it is what it is". |
The average cost is less than half the cost of the average wedding in the United States. For people with life insurance, insurance usually more than covers the costs. Also, as I mentioned before, among people without the means, there are public, private, and often community resources which come together to help the family pay for the basic costs of cremation and a funeral service. For example, a young guy was killed recently in South Philly and after reading about it online my husband donated $10.00 to a PayPal account set up by friends of the family to help pay for the guy's funeral. This sort of thing can help bring people together, strengthening their bonds and ability to organize.
When a person is totally unprepared to deal with the death of a loved-one, and they are the designated person to deal with it, it will not be easy for them. One of things that we celebrants are trained to deal with when it comes to funerals is irrational requests on the part of the bereaved, which might be regretted by them later. Hopefully anyone who is caught unprepared with seek out an advocate, whether that be an impartial friend who can come with them, or clergy if they are religious. Unfortunately, grieving people are more prone to make bad decisions. But again, to assume that the funeral industry at large is more often than not taking advantage of these people when funeral directors make about the same income as journalists and accountants (see link below) just seems uncalled for to me.
This reminds me of how mechanics are so automatically mistrusted in our society. A lot of people who work in that industry resent a reputation which is so often completely unjustified.
And for people who keep bringing up the social pressure on people to cough up more dough, may I remind you that these days the funeral industry has a bad reputation whether deserving or not - for charging a lot for unnecessary items (remember the scene from The Big Lebowski.) Thus, there is also social awareness about that.
The average salary of funeral directors/morticians is hardly obscene: http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtml/swzl_compresult_national_SC16000155.html
It is totally in line with other skilled professional jobs. Now compare that to the money paid to professional athletes, big movie stars, or CEOs of major corporations. Is it obscene for a funeral director to make S40-S80K a year? If you could show me that few people are making an obscene amount of money b |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/28/2009 14:16:57 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 14:39:25 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: | That would be wild wouldn't it? What would they even call a study of people and what they do and think? That would be crazy. |
Great way to miss my point. Let me put it more directly: we don't question people who value art or thing which they collect, but for some reason people here are questioning people who value having a loved-one presented and commemorated in death in a manner they find comforting.
| Unless a gun is being held to their heads, people are responsible for their own spending. |
Society has no influence on individual behavior, then. Interesting. |
Way to put words in my mouth. I never said that society had no influence. I said that regardless of that influence, individuals are still responsible for the decisions they freely make. Society surely does have an influence on, say, violent criminals, since it is clear that a person's social position and experiences especially during early development can contribute to violent tendencies. But we still hold those individuals responsible if they kill their spouse or shoot a clerk while robbing a store.
| Summary: You worked for some Quakers, not all churches are megachurches, some churches have uses other than those that are silly, and therefore land and buildings are cheap, and all churches are used 24/7 for productive purposes. |
You are on a roll for putting words in my mouth.
My house is not used 24/7 for productive purposes. Most of the time during the day in fact it is totally empty except for my cats. Strictly speaking, a huge portion of my mortgage goes solely to boarding my pets and storing my stuff. Office buildings are typically not used for a third to two-thirds of weekdays, and often not used at all on weekends.
What is your point about the churches? All you did was say that they don't share and aren't used most of the time which I simply responded by pointing out that some do share and do rent out or otherwise utilize their space for other purposes. Are you just grasping at making the argument that these buildings are useless and wasteful? Personally I think there's way more commercial real estate which is pretty useless and wasteful in our materialistic society, and there is way way more of that than churches. Most of the stuff sold by the Family Dollar down the street from me is pretty useless crap being marketed to people who typically don't have a lot of expendable income. But you want to specifically bitch about churches in a thread about funerals, particularly when religious institutions tend to charge the least and help poor and working class families out the most with funeral expenses? Okay, whatever.
| So, therefore you would encourage people to spend 40 grand on headstones. |
More bs. Go visit a typical graveyard with many recent markers and then go research the cost of gravestones similar to the majority you see. You will find that while gravestones can go into the several thousands, most are under one thousand dollars and some are as low as a couple hundred dollars. And with cremation, people can get very nice urns for much cheaper.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 16:50:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Gorgo wrote: | That would be wild wouldn't it? What would they even call a study of people and what they do and think? That would be crazy. |
Great way to miss my point. Let me put it more directly: we don't question people who value art or thing which they collect, but for some reason people here are questioning people who value having a loved-one presented and commemorated in death in a manner they find comforting.
| Unless a gun is being held to their heads, people are responsible for their own spending. |
Society has no influence on individual behavior, then. Interesting. |
Way to put words in my mouth. I never said that society had no influence. I said that regardless of that influence, individuals are still responsible for the decisions they freely make. Society surely does have an influence on, say, violent criminals, since it is clear that a person's social position and experiences especially during early development can contribute to violent tendencies. But we still hold those individuals responsible if they kill their spouse or shoot a clerk while robbing a store.
| Summary: You worked for some Quakers, not all churches are megachurches, some churches have uses other than those that are silly, and therefore land and buildings are cheap, and all churches are used 24/7 for productive purposes. |
You are on a roll for putting words in my mouth.
My house is not used 24/7 for productive purposes. Most of the time during the day in fact it is totally empty except for my cats. Strictly speaking, a huge portion of my mortgage goes solely to boarding my pets and storing my stuff. Office buildings are typically not used for a third to two-thirds of weekdays, and often not used at all on weekends.
What is your point about the churches? All you did was say that they don't share and aren't used most of the time which I simply responded by pointing out that some do share and do rent out or otherwise utilize their space for other purposes. Are you just grasping at making the argument that these buildings are useless and wasteful? Personally I think there's way more commercial real estate which is pretty useless and wasteful in our materialistic society, and there is way way more of that than churches. Most of the stuff sold by the Family Dollar down the street from me is pretty useless crap being marketed to people who typically don't have a lot of expendable income. But you want to specifically bitch about churches in a thread about funerals, particularly when religious institutions tend to charge the least and help poor and working class families out the most with funeral expenses? Okay, whatever.
| So, therefore you would encourage people to spend 40 grand on headstones. |
More bs. Go visit a typical graveyard with many recent markers and then go research the cost of gravestones similar to the majority you see. You will find that while gravestones can go into the several thousands, most are under one thousand dollars and some are as low as a couple hundred dollars. And with cremation, people can get very nice urns for much cheaper.
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To put it another way, Martha, you're not responding to things that I said. Maybe you're responding to everyone in a post that is a reply |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2009 : 17:14:39 [Permalink]
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| To put it another way, Martha, you're not responding to things that I said. Maybe you're responding to everyone in a post that is a reply to me, I don't know, but you're not responding to what I said. |
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. As far as I can see, I directly responded to several quotes from you. If I've misunderstood what you were saying along the way, then clarify that specifically. But I have indeed been responded to things you've written in this discussion. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Your thoughts on funerals
