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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2009 : 01:31:39
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http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4781
The only reason you are there is to protect the person to the left and right of you. Everyone knew about the oil but your only mission is staying alive and keeping your friends alive.
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Benji: The “support the troops” campaign was engineered to allow for indirect acceptance of the war.
Josh: People are scared to criticize the troops, it's considered the most blasphemous thing in the world. At the same time, if you are never criticized than you will never know that what you are doing is wrong.
Benji: You can't criticize the troops. It's a poverty draft, these kids just do it because they have no other way out of poverty.
Josh: But you have to criticize them, because they will say they are just following orders, but that's bullshit, the Nazis were just following orders too. The military is fascist, it's basically blind, unquestioning obedience. Then they try to tell you that the blind obedience is some form of courage and bravery. It's much easier to go with the current than against it. While I was at Evergreen I was learning something different than what I was told in the military. I got to the point where morally I couldn't just be opposed to the war, I also couldn't even participate in the military or train other soldiers to go kill people in a racist war. I was told in January 2008 that I was going to be deployed to Irak and I decided I wasn't going to go back. I was already speaking out against the war and blocking military shipments, I was active in direct action against the war. I was building barricades in the streets of Olympia to block military shipments from going out of the US ports to Irak, and for the first time I felt like I was fighting for something I actually believed in. It makes me cry to think about this. I was in the military for five years and never had the chance to fight for something I believed in.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 13:55:48 [Permalink]
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This part is a bit disturbing:| I was already speaking out against the war and blocking military shipments, I was active in direct action against the war. I was building barricades in the streets of Olympia to block military shipments from going out of the US ports to Irak, and for the first time I felt like I was fighting for something I actually believed in. It makes me cry to think about this. I was in the military for five years and never had the chance to fight for something I believed in. |
So in order to perform an act he believed in, all he needed to do was commit sedition? Good for him.
Since he admitted that his actions were during his military commitment, perhaps he'll find an arrest awaiting him upon his return to the US.
I wonder if he feels guilty about breaking his oath.
Edited to change the word "it" to "in" |
| Edited by - Boron10 on 09/13/2009 15:23:15 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 15:17:39 [Permalink]
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I'm with Tim on this one. Speak all you want, at any time. But do not take actions that can directly disrupt military action. There are better ways to channel that energy.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 17:03:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I'm with Tim on this one. Speak all you want, at any time. But do not take actions that can directly disrupt military action. There are better ways to channel that energy.
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I can't say I'm against taking such direct disruptive action in all such cases. But anyone who does so should be ready to accept his or her just punishment for doing so like a grown-up . That was a principle well-understood by the non-violent struggle against racism in the late 50's and early 60's. It also applies to anyone engaging in such a "resistance" struggle.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 18:09:00 [Permalink]
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There is a difference between getting on the bus when you aren't supposed to and actively disrupting a military supply chain.
You want to disrupt shit, get your voice and anti-war message heard? Go chain yourself and 10 friends to your senator's office door, disrupt his or her ability to work. Get a thousand friends and go lay down on the steps to the capital building, blocking entry for all of congress.
Do not mess with stuff that could negatively impact the life of a member of the US military.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 18:22:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
There is a difference between getting on the bus when you aren't supposed to and actively disrupting a military supply chain.
You want to disrupt shit, get your voice and anti-war message heard? Go chain yourself and 10 friends to your senator's office door, disrupt his or her ability to work. Get a thousand friends and go lay down on the steps to the capital building, blocking entry for all of congress.
Do not mess with stuff that could negatively impact the life of a member of the US military.
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I would agree with you, given the alternatives you stated. I would not agree in all cases, not knowing what they might be.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 07:37:21 [Permalink]
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If you think these wars are criminal and immoral then oaths that supposedly would cause one to continue to support these crimes would of course be meaningless.
What to do about it is another matter. Tim, did you think these people didn't understand there were laws (immoral and illegal as those laws might be) against this kind of activity?
Since you are "disturbed" would you think this is an effective action if the goal is to make sure service members are disturbed enough to become informed on this issue? What would you do if you suddenly realized Obama is just another thug, and what you were doing was supporting the impoverishment and murder of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 09:57:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
If you think these wars are criminal and immoral then oaths that supposedly would cause one to continue to support these crimes would of course be meaningless.
What to do about it is another matter. Tim, did you think these people didn't understand there were laws (immoral and illegal as those laws might be) against this kind of activity?
Since you are "disturbed" would you think this is an effective action if the goal is to make sure service members are disturbed enough to become informed on this issue? What would you do if you suddenly realized Obama is just another thug, and what you were doing was supporting the impoverishment and murder of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan?
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People in the military all have the right to become conscientious objectors.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 10:00:48 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you think these wars are criminal and immoral then oaths that supposedly would cause one to continue to support these crimes would of course be meaningless.
What to do about it is another matter. Tim, did you think these people didn't understand there were laws (immoral and illegal as those laws might be) against this kind of activity?
Since you are "disturbed" would you think this is an effective action if the goal is to make sure service members are disturbed enough to become informed on this issue? What would you do if you suddenly realized Obama is just another thug, and what you were doing was supporting the impoverishment and murder of the people of Iraq and Afghanistan?
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People in the military all have the right to become conscientious objectors.
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C.O. Status is a separate issue. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 18:23:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
If you think these wars are criminal and immoral then oaths that supposedly would cause one to continue to support these crimes would of course be meaningless. |
The oaths aren't in support of crimes, they're in support of an ideal that both of these protesters recognize and support themselves.| What to do about it is another matter. |
Indeed, it's an interesting dilemma. We've got thousands of troops in combat zones, many of them who think that they are serving the country in a positive way, many of whom are undoubtedly in real danger from real enemies, but who also contribute to horrible atrocities (some directly, some indirectly).
Could a person, who has sworn the same oaths and is striving for the same ideals as those troops, but who sees through the thin veneer of positivity, claim the moral high ground while "actively disrupting" the supply lines that help reduce the number of dead among his own countrymen?
Think about it: these guys are rightfully disgusted by the hundreds of civilians they helped kill, and are disgusted by the soldiers that they helped train who have died in combat, but since (they say) the guys in-country don't see much unfiltered news, then their supply-disruptions will inform zero of their fellow soldiers, while increasing the risk to hundreds or thousands of them.
Seems like a better solution would be to put together a newsreel of the war coverage highlighting what's really going on, and get it to as many combat-zone enlisted kids as is possible, through the spamming of military email addresses, sneaking SD cards or DVDs into care packages, or taking thousands of leaflets to a high bulding near a camp and waiting for a strong breeze in the right direction.
If the goal is to get the guys who are fighting to stop fighting, then they need to be engaged directly. Disrupting the supply lines that keep them alive will do little but piss them off, and these two should know that. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 18:49:22 [Permalink]
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The oath goes like this:
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. (So help me God.)
Now, I'm no attorney, but this seems to me the guy violated his oath. Yes we uphold the ideal of the Constitution but we also affirm/swear that we will follow the orders of POTUS and officers to whom we report. We may not necessarily agree with the orders at the time they are issued but the only rule we are really given in following orders is 'Are they lawful orders?' Under a Congressional Declaration of War fighting against an 'enemy' is a lawful order. However, some of the orders that were given that violate the Geneva Conventions ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions ) should not have been followed. Though not everyone is really familiar with everything involved in these Conventions - I'm certainly not beyond what is indicated there on the first page of my link. And I was unaware that any specific was said with regard to female pow's. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 19:10:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Trish
...the only rule we are really given in following orders is 'Are they lawful orders?' Under a Congressional Declaration of War fighting against an 'enemy' is a lawful order. |
It may be important to note here that the last few times these issues have come up, Gorgo made it clear that he thinks that since these current wars are illegal per several treaties that the US has signed, that any order supporting the prosecution of these wars is also illegal, and thus soldiers have a duty to refuse to even deploy.
It is also important to note that few soldiers are legal scholars, and that they aren't expected to be such, and so what constitutes an "illegal order" is spelled out pretty clearly in the UCMJ, is it not? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 19:33:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Trish
...the only rule we are really given in following orders is 'Are they lawful orders?' Under a Congressional Declaration of War fighting against an 'enemy' is a lawful order. |
It may be important to note here that the last few times these issues have come up, Gorgo made it clear that he thinks that since these current wars are illegal per several treaties that the US has signed, that any order supporting the prosecution of these wars is also illegal, and thus soldiers have a duty to refuse to even deploy.
It is also important to note that few soldiers are legal scholars, and that they aren't expected to be such, and so what constitutes an "illegal order" is spelled out pretty clearly in the UCMJ, is it not?
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Yes. And where Gorgo remains mistaken is the idea that the order to deploy can ever be an illegal order. It can't be illegal, ever. Troops are responsible for their personal conduct only, and they must follow an order to deploy for combat. What they do once deployed is different territory, and their individual responsibility comes into play.
We've been round and round this particular argument with Gorgo before, so I don't think there is much chance of getting him to recognize he is mistaken.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 19:48:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It is also important to note that few soldiers are legal scholars, and that they aren't expected to be such, and so what constitutes an "illegal order" is spelled out pretty clearly in the UCMJ, is it not? |
Not very clearly in the UCMJ; however, all US military personnel are given extensive training on their duty to disobey illegal orders, including some examples in Basic Training.
Sailors are issued a copy of the Bluejacket's Manual, which discusses that and many other day-to-day concepts vital to a junior Sailor's professional development, and I assume the other services do something similar. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 20:11:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Originally posted by Dave W.
It is also important to note that few soldiers are legal scholars, and that they aren't expected to be such, and so what constitutes an "illegal order" is spelled out pretty clearly in the UCMJ, is it not? |
Not very clearly in the UCMJ; however, all US military personnel are given extensive training on their duty to disobey illegal orders, including some examples in Basic Training.
Sailors are issued a copy of the Bluejacket's Manual, which discusses that and many other day-to-day concepts vital to a junior Sailor's professional development, and I assume the other services do something similar.
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The Marines get something called the 'Green Monster'. But it includes everything from how to field strip an M16 A2 Service Rifle to the UCMJ. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 20:58:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Boron10
Not very clearly in the UCMJ; however, all US military personnel are given extensive training on their duty to disobey illegal orders, including some examples in Basic Training. |
Are any of the examples or training about declarations of war which may or may not violate treaties? Is Dude correct that an order to deploy is never illegal?| Sailors are issued a copy of the Bluejacket's Manual, which discusses that and many other day-to-day concepts vital to a junior Sailor's professional development, and I assume the other services do something similar. |
Good grief. This is 2009. Why isn't the whole book online and searchable? I understand it'd be important for every cadet to have a bound copy to read anywhere, but wouldn't a full, online version be useful, too? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Interview with Iraq veterans against the wars
