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jakesteele
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 :  19:44:49  Show Profile Send jakesteele a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was wondering if the debris of the flares from the Phoenix Light's was ever retrieved and shown to the public to corroborate the Official Story of the Air Force?
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Sacred Cows make the tastiest hamburgers

Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1990 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 :  20:26:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You gotta be kidding me...."Debris of the flares...to corroborate"?! That's such a oldy-moldy non story.

Jakesteele, have you been reading the spinner rack of full of fiction near the front door of the 7/11 store at the corner of Roswell and Main, with wearing your tin foil cone hat at the same time?

What woo-woo websites have you been hanging around since then?

This event was debunked years ago. Guess you missed the boat.

"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."

"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 :  21:14:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jakesteele

I was wondering if the debris of the flares from the Phoenix Light's was ever retrieved and shown to the public to corroborate the Official Story of the Air Force?
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I have no idea what this Phoenix Light is. (Traffic lights in the city of Phoenix AZ, or the light from the flames of a burning bird?)
Please post a link on the subject for reference.



Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

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jakesteele
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 :  23:54:16   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jakesteele a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Randy
SFN Regular

USA
1486 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 : 20:26:02 [Permalink] Show Profile Send Randy a Private Message Reply with Quote
You gotta be kidding me...."Debris of the flares...to corroborate"?! That's such a oldy-moldy non story.

Jakesteele, have you been reading the spinner rack of full of fiction near the front door of the 7/11 store at the corner of Roswell and Main, with wearing your tin foil cone hat at the same time?

What woo-woo websites have you been hanging around since then?

This event was debunked years ago. Guess you missed the boat.

Since you inappropriately launched preemptive ad hominen attack on me I guess I will respond in kind by asking you if you are wearing your pseudo-skeptic hat.

You still didn't answer my question. Was the flare debris ever recovered and released to the public to corroborate the Official Story? Simple polite question, simple polite answer.

Sacred Cows make the tastiest hamburgers
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  02:09:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A quick google produced [tinfoil hat] this:
he Phoenix Lights (sometimes referred to as the "lights over Phoenix") were a series of widely sighted optical phenomena (generally unidentified flying objects) that occurred in the skies over the U.S. states of Arizona and Nevada, and the Mexican state of Sonora on March 13, 1997. A repeat of the lights occurred February 6, 2007, and was filmed by the local Fox News TV station.[2][3]

A similar incident occurred April 21, 2008.[4] This incident was later revealed to be prank–flares attached to helium balloons.[5]

Typical UFO/space alien nonsense, really, and no amount of evidence will ever convince the True Believer. [/tinfoil hat]




"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  03:46:12   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jakesteele

You still didn't answer my question.
And you still haven't answered my questions from back in July.
Was the flare debris ever recovered and released to the public to corroborate the Official Story?
I'll answer your question with a few questions.

1) Who should have paid to scour many square miles of desert and/or mountains for debris?

2) Assuming you're referring to the 10 PM set of lights (the "event" with an "Official Story"), what sort of debris from military illumination flares would you expect to find?

3) Since you doubt the "Official Story," why would you assume that any debris ever "released to the public" was in any way evidence of that story, and not unrelated flare debris handed out to cover up what really happened?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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HalfMooner
Dingaling

Philippines
15831 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  03:51:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send HalfMooner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy

A quick google produced [tinfoil hat] this:
he Phoenix Lights (sometimes referred to as the "lights over Phoenix") were a series of widely sighted optical phenomena (generally unidentified flying objects) that occurred in the skies over the U.S. states of Arizona and Nevada, and the Mexican state of Sonora on March 13, 1997. A repeat of the lights occurred February 6, 2007, and was filmed by the local Fox News TV station.[2][3]

A similar incident occurred April 21, 2008.[4] This incident was later revealed to be prank–flares attached to helium balloons.[5]

Typical UFO/space alien nonsense, really, and no amount of evidence will ever convince the True Believer. [/tinfoil hat]




Oh, those Phoenix Lights. They were real lights in the sky, and were (until the perpetrators fessed up) unidentified flying objects. Kind of a cool prank, except that burning flares are a pretty dangerous fire hazard. That, plus some people will take pranks like this all too seriously, even after they are explained by the pranksters.

Same as with Bigfoot footprints, crop circles, and the Loch Ness photo, mere confession of prank or fraud can do little to stop the credophiles.


Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  07:56:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jakesteele.....

Look at the wiki article on the Phoenix lights. Read the associated links and references. Then give us your evaluation of the explanations -"official" - and otherwise. I, probably the only one, would be interested in your response.
Edited by - bngbuck on 09/28/2009 08:25:04
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jakesteele
New Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  12:20:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send jakesteele a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by jakesteele

You still didn't answer my question.
And you still haven't answered my questions from back in July.
Was the flare debris ever recovered and released to the public to corroborate the Official Story?
I'll answer your question with a few questions.

1) Who should have paid to scour many square miles of desert and/or mountains for debris?

2) Assuming you're referring to the 10 PM set of lights (the "event" with an "Official Story"), what sort of debris from military illumination flares would you expect to find?

3) Since you doubt the "Official Story," why would you assume that any debris ever "released to the public" was in any way evidence of that story, and not unrelated flare debris handed out to cover up what really happened?




I never answered your questions because I never went back to the thread.

I can’t remember what link it was that I posted but it was just good basic nutrition that any doctor would recommend like this kind of stuff:

I. It can help to reduce daily calorie intake: calorie restriction is shown to shift metabolic pathways to a protective mode due to increased levels of ketone bodies, plus less body fat means less inflammation in all body's tissues.

2. If possible, increase physical activity, it'll make the step 1 more effective.

3. Choose foods with lower glycemic index (see references below)

4. Eat more of these foods:

Omega3-rich foods or Omega-3 supplements (see references below)
Garlic, fresh, to reduce inflammation, up to 4 g a day
Raw onions
Lettuce
Cabbage
Cauliflower
Carrots
Radishes
Turnip
Ccucumber
Oat bran, up to 10 g a day, to supply oluble fibers
Fruit
Tofu
Soy milk
Sprouts

5. Eat less of these foods:

Red meats
Diary
Caffein-containing drinks - tea, coffee
White bread
White flour
Sweets
Butter

II. The herbs I was given through my M.D. Ph.D. AMA doctor have included DGL licorice root extract, cat’s claw, aloe vera juice for an ulcerous condition. DGL coats the stomach lining and helps it grow back. Cat’s Claw is a fairly powerful astringent that helps healing, aloe vera is soothing and promotes healing. Also, I have taken some stuff made in Switzerland called Bio-Strath, which is a combo of herbs and some kind of ‘living yeast’ B vitamin. I take this for mild to moderate ecxema (sp)

****************************************

1. I think both the debunkers and the believers should go out and do it on their own time. Neither side cannot arrive at completely definitive conclusion without having all of the evidence available.
2. I would expect to find the parachutes that were the newest in the area that would be distinguishable from the older, more weathered ones.
3. I didn’t say I doubted the Official Story. I asked a simple question.




I answered your questions, now you answer mine. I believe you answered the original question by asking ‘who should be paid…

The next question I have is about the first event – assuming you view them as two -- that occurred in Henderson, Nevada. The only info I could find about an explanation is the two amateur astronomers that anecdotally related their sighting of Cessnas. My question is:

1. Did any debunker and/or believer request the flight plan that the Cessnas would have had to have filed with the local FFA’s standard protocol for all civilian flights?

To put this in context for you, if you had a loved one murdered and someone said, “who are we going to pay to do a grid search in that field looking for any kind of evidence and what do you expect to find? Would you want them to turn over rock and any pieces of evidence; paper scraps, cig butts, empty soda/beer cans, etc. or would you just blow that part of the investigation off?



Sacred Cows make the tastiest hamburgers
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pleco
SFN Addict

USA
2998 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  14:08:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit pleco's Homepage Send pleco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I refuse to eat less red meat. Especially 1.5" beef tenderloin pan seared (medium rare of course) with a cream peppercorn sauce deglazed with cognac (aka steak au poivre)...


by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart.
Edited by - pleco on 09/28/2009 14:09:09
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 09/28/2009 :  18:51:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by jakesteele

I never answered your questions because I never went back to the thread.
And that's a shame. Thetas I might have appreciated the info you left here, had it been in that other thread in July sometime. Or maybe she would have looked at your non-answer to my third question over there and come to the same conclusion I'm coming to.
1. I think both the debunkers and the believers should go out and do it on their own time. Neither side cannot arrive at completely definitive conclusion without having all of the evidence available.
Well, there is always evidence that isn't available, for just about any phenomenon. Since "completely definitive conclusions" are few and far-between in forensics, how much is required before we can arrive at any conclusion? How much do we need before we can arrive at a "most likely" conclusion?
2. I would expect to find the parachutes that were the newest in the area that would be distinguishable from the older, more weathered ones.
You would? Not knowing anything about how flare parachutes weather, I wouldn't expect such a thing. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Under what conditions and how long does it take before flare-parachute weathering makes a measurable difference? And would the difference require some sort of measuring device to detect, or would it be obvious to the naked eye?
3. I didn’t say I doubted the Official Story. I asked a simple question.
But it's obvious that you do doubt the "Official Story," because a pilot saying "I dropped flares at that time" is a perfectly reasonable explanation, no more evidence necessary. But you think that that's not enough for a "completely definitive conclusion."
I answered your questions, now you answer mine.
But you didn't answer my third question, not to its point. You deflected.
I believe you answered the original question by asking ‘who should be paid…

The next question I have is about the first event – assuming you view them as two -- that occurred in Henderson, Nevada. The only info I could find about an explanation is the two amateur astronomers that anecdotally related their sighting of Cessnas. My question is:

1. Did any debunker and/or believer request the flight plan that the Cessnas would have had to have filed with the local FFA’s standard protocol for all civilian flights?
You're wrong. VFR doesn't require the filing of a flight plan. And Night VFR is legal in the U.S. So long as the visibility is good, you can hop in your Cessna and fly just about anywhere you want, at any time, without filing squat. So aside from your mistaken premise, do you have any reason to expect a couple of Cessna pilots in that area at that time would have filed flight plans?
To put this in context for you, if you had a loved one murdered and someone said, “who are we going to pay to do a grid search in that field looking for any kind of evidence and what do you expect to find? Would you want them to turn over rock and any pieces of evidence; paper scraps, cig butts, empty soda/beer cans, etc. or would you just blow that part of the investigation off?
I pay the police to do that work, through my taxes, when a crime has been committed. A military pilot firing military flares at night is not a crime, so you've had a massive analogy failure. Just because you think that there isn't enough evidence to draw a conclusion doesn't mean that we should spend thousands or millions of dollars on a search. A search which, until you provide more information about the behavior of the flares in question, and the military flights dropping them, you can't actually say would turn up any useful evidence.

More important still is the question you dodged. What sort of evidence would satisfy you? If you're willing to entertain the possibility that a pilot lied about dropping flares (the only reason to actually go hunt for parachutes), then you might be willing to entertain the possibility that relatively unweathered burnt-out flare parachutes were planted as a part of a cover-up. So where would you draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable standards of evidence? Can you convince me that spending money and manpower on a search would result in you saying, "okay, they were flares," if the search happened to find the evidence that you say is required?

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  01:05:17   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jakesteele.....

After you have completed your initiation enviseration by Dave, I would really appreciate hearing your considered comments on the wiki article concerning the Phoenix lights.

There are three separate events mentioned in that article, and the explanatory commentary is significantly different regarding each of the three incidents.

According to several reports, flares attached to parachutes were dropped by military aircraft (in one instance), or were attached to large helium balloons by a prankster and sent aloft (in another instance). Still another instance was described by some as lights emanating from or located on some form of aircraft, probably military. Some corroborating evidence for each of these possibilities was given.

Questions have been raised as to how descending parachute flares, or ascending helium balloon flares were sufficiently controlled in flight to appear as a group flight, or an enduring "V" formation, as many of the eyewitness and photographic observers defined them. However, the rising flare, descending flare, and "aircraft" (either as a dropping agent or as a light-bearing agent) explanations have been conflated into a general "it was military aircraft and prankster(s)" explanation which seems to satisfy most folks.

I certainly wouldn't dare to even entertain the thought here on SFN that there could be any other explanation than "military and pranksters", but I do wish that some of the fine minds that have come to this conclusion, after seriously studying these events, would more completely detail the logistics and mechanical detail used to create the illusions reported by many hundreds of people.

It kind of brings to mind the"Battle of Los Angeles" so thoroughly discussed and dismissed in this forum a year ago or so. As most know who have spent any time playing with mind toys such as these, there are hundreds of similar events that emerge from the millions of "UFO" or "UAP" alleged sightings over the past sixty-odd years (actually hundreds of years if you want to rupture all of the credibility envelope's seams)! Hundreds that have been reasonably well investigated and still remain unsatisfactorily explained.

Well, hundreds as compared to millions is a ratio of roughly ten thousand to one or a 0.0001 chance that a given observation is anything other than a natural or mundane event. The apparent fact that that figure is not 0, rather than 0.0001, is interesting, however.

Jakesteele, what is your view? I know most of the SFN regulars' opinions very well!







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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  04:28:10   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
bng said:
It kind of brings to mind the"Battle of Los Angeles" so thoroughly discussed and dismissed in this forum a year ago or so. As most know who have spent any time playing with mind toys such as these, there are hundreds of similar events that emerge from the millions of "UFO" or "UAP" alleged sightings over the past sixty-odd years (actually hundreds of years if you want to rupture all of the credibility envelope's seams)! Hundreds that have been reasonably well investigated and still remain unsatisfactorily explained.

Well, hundreds as compared to millions is a ratio of roughly ten thousand to one or a 0.0001 chance that a given observation is anything other than a natural or mundane event. The apparent fact that that figure is not 0, rather than 0.0001, is interesting, however.


Defeated by your own "logic".

If you made 1,000,000 observations of something, and you could explain 999,900 of your observations via natural/mundane explanations, it makes perfect sense to assume those 100 are important in some way... because it also makes sense that extra terrestrials would travel to earth from other parts of the galaxy so they could flash some lights in the night sky, abduct/impregnate/probe a few retards, mutilate some cows, and make strange patterns in crop fields. /sarcasm

Maybe it is faulty observation Bill? Maybe strange noises in the night still scare ignorant rednecks. Maybe witnesses are prone to exaggeration. Maybe human memory of a not clearly observed thing is heavily influenced by our ability to see patterns, and those patterns are added after the fact of the actual observation. Shapes in clouds, faces in shadows, and so on.

So lets stop holding out a few "unexplained" things as if they were evidence of anything.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  06:16:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck

...the illusions reported by many hundreds of people.
I think it would be more illustrative to examine the reports from hundreds of people for similarities.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  10:55:55   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by bngbuck
It kind of brings to mind the"Battle of Los Angeles" so thoroughly discussed and dismissed in this forum a year ago or so. As most know who have spent any time playing with mind toys such as these, there are hundreds of similar events that emerge from the millions of "UFO" or "UAP" alleged sightings over the past sixty-odd years (actually hundreds of years if you want to rupture all of the credibility envelope's seams)! Hundreds that have been reasonably well investigated and still remain unsatisfactorily explained.

Well, hundreds as compared to millions is a ratio of roughly ten thousand to one or a 0.0001 chance that a given observation is anything other than a natural or mundane event. The apparent fact that that figure is not 0, rather than 0.0001, is interesting, however.

Just because there are "hundreds" of events that haven't been satisfactorily explained, doesn't mean that there isn't a mundane or natural explanation for them. It just means that there is an explanation for them, we just haven't found it yet. To leap from there to alien visitation is to skip a lot of natural explanations.
Your own words above tells us the history of UFO-reports: In every case where a UFO-event have been identified and explained, it's had a scientific explanation pointing to a natural or man-made cause. That should give you the odds for the last few unexplained ones.

If you flip a coin 900'000 times and get heads every time, a sane man would draw the tentative conclusion that the coin has two "heads" sides. The other reasonable answer should be "Maybe something is interfering with the flipping", not "aliens are interfering with the flipping".


Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3

"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse

Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder.
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bngbuck
SFN Addict

USA
2437 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  11:02:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send bngbuck a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude, Dude, Dude.......

Defeated by your own "logic".
What purpose or thesis was "defeated" by that post? Upon what petard of mine own have I been hoisted?
If you made 1,000,000 observations of something, and you could explain 999,900 of your observations via natural/mundane explanations, it makes perfect sense to assume those 100 are important in some way...
My point, exactly.
... because it also makes sense that extra terrestrials would travel to earth from other parts of the galaxy so they could flash some lights in the night sky, abduct/impregnate/probe a few retards, mutilate some cows, and make strange patterns in crop fields. /sarcasm

Wow! You do become unhinged easily, Dude! Your obsession with peculiar superstitions is indeed fascinating, but not exactly relevant to my comment. I thank you for the aside that the outburst was sarcasm, otherwise I would have had no way of knowing that; but sarcasm or serious solecism, what does all this folklore have to do with my request to Jakesteele?
Maybe it is faulty observation Bill? Maybe strange noises in the night still scare ignorant rednecks. Maybe witnesses are prone to exaggeration. Maybe human memory of a not clearly observed thing is heavily influenced by our ability to see patterns, and those patterns are added after the fact of the actual observation. Shapes in clouds, faces in shadows, and so on.
Maybe you are making Andes out of anthills. I have been scared by strange noises in the night, but I would contest being called an ignorant redneck. Unquestionably, some witnessess exaggerate. Pattern recognition does not a phenomenon make. Phantasms of perception are indeed commonplace. So?

I have recognized your need to aggressively announce your denouncement of all things preternatural for some time, and I am happy to provide you a platform for proclaiming that position. However, my request to Jakesteele was an attempt to get this reasonably well-spoken newcomer to open up a bit on his views of the Phoenix events. I don't believe that either he or I have made any reference to supernatural or extraterrestrial events in this thread. I know that I certainly have not. Nor do I feel that there is anything other than an extremely minute possibility that the Phoenix phenomena were "evidence" of anything truly unusual. Only that the official and unofficial explanations were logically incomplete.
So lets stop holding out a few "unexplained" things as if they were evidence of anything.
Kumbaya. Can't we all just be skeptic friends? So let's you and me just get all fuzzy/snuggly and I'll confess that I'm a closet freakazoid and you can admit to terminal pre-ejaculation.

I made no, and will not make any, reference to "evidence" of anything specific that is derivative from the relatively few hundred exhaustively investigated and left unexplained examples of UAP. Your presumption that I "believe" in UFO's as evidence of extraterrestrial visitation is just plain untrue. I do feel the fact that these examples exist is worthy of my and other's interest.

Jakesteele, are you doing a hit and run, or just DUI?
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