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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 05:04:23 [Permalink]
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| What they said or intended is irrelevant. What they've done is put more weight behind yet another gang of thugs. If they had given it to [name the criminal regime of your choice] would you be saying it's no big deal? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2009 : 06:18:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
What they said or intended is irrelevant. What they've done is put more weight behind yet another gang of thugs. |
Since it seems like every administration has been a "gang of thugs" in your eyes, Gorgo, this should just be business as usual, and thus "no big deal."
How much more weight does a Peace Prize provide, anyway? Does it legitimize the thuggery more or less than the election results did?| If they had given it to [name the criminal regime of your choice] would you be saying it's no big deal? |
I recall a lot of people saying that giving it to Arafat was a good thing. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 06:41:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I recall a lot of people saying that giving it to Arafat was a good thing.
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Yet, we still don't know what you think about it. I'd have to review the time line and the details of it all again, but my guess is that helped prop up the facade of an actual peace process. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 06:43:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
How much more weight does a Peace Prize provide, anyway? Does it legitimize the thuggery more or less than the election results did |
Not sure why measuring which was more harmful is helpful, but both seem to be examples of the success of Obama's PR machine. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/15/2009 08:05:25 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 08:08:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
quote]Since it seems like every administration has been a "gang of thugs" in your eyes, Gorgo, this should just be business as usual, and thus "no big deal."
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Why? Are thugs no big deal to you?
I don't know that every administration is a gang of thugs. Do you sincerely think that the Bush II administration was anything but a gang of thugs, for instance? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 08:33:56 [Permalink]
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Dude:
How come it can't be for the exact reasons stated by the Nobel committee? That seems to be the only position anyone isn't taking. All the rest is just evidence free assertion, nothing skeptics would engage in, right? |
Oh, I would bet that the prize is for the reasons the committee gave. But what Obama has done stands out in stark contrast to the previous administration. Making nice to the people of Islamic nations, for example. I think it would be naive to think that this change in direction and encouraging that change wasn't on the committees mind. Sure, I'm speculating. But didn't there have to be some sort of benchmark to weigh the change in policy that made Obama stand out as deserving the prize? And if you break it down, not continuing Bush policies toward the world community, which were very unpopular in Europe could not have gone unnoticed by the committee.
Put another way, if Bush hadn't been perceived as anti Muslim, with an us against the people of Islam policy, Obama would not have been a standout for the prize. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 10:30:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
How come it can't be for the exact reasons stated by the Nobel committee? That seems to be the only position anyone isn't taking. All the rest is just evidence free assertion, nothing skeptics would engage in, right? |
Oh, I would bet that the prize is for the reasons the committee gave. But what Obama has done stands out in stark contrast to the previous administration. Making nice to the people of Islamic nations, for example. I think it would be naive to think that this change in direction and encouraging that change wasn't on the committees mind. Sure, I'm speculating. But didn't there have to be some sort of benchmark to weigh the change in policy that made Obama stand out as deserving the prize? And if you break it down, not continuing Bush policies toward the world community, which were very unpopular in Europe could not have gone unnoticed by the committee.
Put another way, if Bush hadn't been perceived as anti Muslim, with an us against the people of Islam policy, Obama would not have been a standout for the prize.
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I think you are letting your personal political bias color your assessment. Not quite so badly as Gorgo, who is completely irrational, but still. You have no evidence that they awarded the prize for any reason other than what they stated.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 11:21:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I think you are letting your personal political bias color your assessment. Not quite so badly as Gorgo, who is completely irrational, but still. You have no evidence that they awarded the prize for any reason other than what they stated.
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I don't think he said they did award it to him for any reason other than what they stated. I think he said that he thinks those reasons might have taken on more importance in contrast to what Bush did. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 15:54:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Originally posted by Kil
Dude:
How come it can't be for the exact reasons stated by the Nobel committee? That seems to be the only position anyone isn't taking. All the rest is just evidence free assertion, nothing skeptics would engage in, right? |
Oh, I would bet that the prize is for the reasons the committee gave. But what Obama has done stands out in stark contrast to the previous administration. Making nice to the people of Islamic nations, for example. I think it would be naive to think that this change in direction and encouraging that change wasn't on the committees mind. Sure, I'm speculating. But didn't there have to be some sort of benchmark to weigh the change in policy that made Obama stand out as deserving the prize? And if you break it down, not continuing Bush policies toward the world community, which were very unpopular in Europe could not have gone unnoticed by the committee.
Put another way, if Bush hadn't been perceived as anti Muslim, with an us against the people of Islam policy, Obama would not have been a standout for the prize.
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I think you are letting your personal political bias color your assessment. Not quite so badly as Gorgo, who is completely irrational, but still. You have no evidence that they awarded the prize for any reason other than what they stated.
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From the OP link:
Vote of confidence
Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee said their choice could be seen as an early vote of confidence in Obama intended to build global support for his policies. They lauded the change in global mood wrought by Obama's calls for peace and cooperation, and praised his pledges to reduce the world stock of nuclear arms, ease American conflicts with Muslim nations and strengthen the U.S. role in combating climate change.
Aagot Valle, a lawmaker for the Socialist Left party who joined the committee this year, said she hoped the selection would be viewed as "support and a commitment for Obama."
"And I hope it will be an inspiration for all those that work with nuclear disarmament and disarmament," she told The Associated Press in a rare interview. Members of the Nobel peace committee usually speak only through its chairman. |
Bolding is mine.
Dude, I think there is enough here to speculate as I have done. And thanks for not calling me completely irrational. That must have been difficult for you.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5311 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 17:22:42 [Permalink]
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| Hitchens thinks it's nonsense. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 17:55:58 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
Dude, I think there is enough here to speculate as I have done. And thanks for not calling me completely irrational. That must have been difficult for you.
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Uh huh.
You aren't completely irrational Kil, just irrational when it comes to democrats and progressive political issues. That isn't anything new though.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13481 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 19:17:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Kil said:
Dude, I think there is enough here to speculate as I have done. And thanks for not calling me completely irrational. That must have been difficult for you.
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Uh huh.
You aren't completely irrational Kil, just irrational when it comes to democrats and progressive political issues. That isn't anything new though.
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Bullshit.
Now, either find where I have been irrational on progressive political issues, or stuff it.
Also, if you think it is irrational to speculate on the motives of the Nobel committee, which, by the way, doesn't even rise to the level of an opinion, tough shit. But hey, thanks for being the keeper of purity in critical thinking, you dogmatic cunt.
 Official Warning
I chose to phrase the above post in a way that Dude might understand. I don't condone my use of language in this post, so I am giving myself a warning. Do not take this as a ticket to ride. I am perfectly willing to admit my hypocrisy in this matter.
Kil |
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2009 : 01:31:59 [Permalink]
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Who in the Arab world (not that "Arab" is a full description...) has really changed their opinion about the US? I mean, I've heard friendly words from the Jordanians, Egyptians, Saudis, Abbas in Palestine (though his credibility among Palestinians is questionable), but these groups were relatively friendly already. He is personally relatively way more popular than Bush at 48% favorable (5 months ago) in the region in opinion polls (not that the people in some of these countries have a lot of influence) while the US gets 33% favorable, which I suppose is a good sign, but I really question how much that matters in terms of the prospects for peace.
He's definitely not gaining many points in Iraq. He has gained some (abstract if not practical) ground on Israel/Palestine I think -- Palestinians are still displeased that he did not condemn anything the Israelis did during the last large conflict, but he has at least opposed Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories.
Still, to suggest no one did more than this to promote peace or improve human rights seems ridiculous and makes the decision seem quite Euro/US-centric and overly reactionary (to Bush).
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1084658.html (polls) |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/16/2009 01:33:32 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2009 : 06:57:09 [Permalink]
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Kil said:
Now, either find where I have been irrational on progressive political issues, or stuff it.
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You know very well where the origin of my complaint comes from, and there have been a handful of instances since then as well. I'm just saying that you are blinded by political bias on some things, and you leave critical thinking/skepticism behind on those occasions.
| Also, if you think it is irrational to speculate on the motives of the Nobel committee, |
Is that what it is? Speculation?
Because this:
This really was an anti-Bush prize. And so what? Who can blame them?
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Doesn't have a speculative ring to it. More like you are assigning them a motivation out of your personal political bias, and you are stating it in terms that don't even remotely indicate it is speculation.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Nobel Prize and Obama
