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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2009 : 17:13:59
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You are born into your religion but choose to be gay. I'm sure our gay membership will be all agog when they hear of this.
Religion is not a choice but being gay is, GOP leader’s spokesman says
By Raw Story
Wednesday, October 14th, 2009 -- 2:37 pm
You were born a Christian, not born gay. Religion is not a choice.
Or so the spokesman for House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) would have you believe. Questioned about why the House's top Republican opposes a hate crimes bill penalizing violence against gays, his spokesman said he "supports existing federal protections (based on race, religion, gender, etc) based on immutable characteristics," just not protections for things like being gay -- which conservatives occasionally claim is a choice.
"He does not support adding sexual orientation to the list of protected classes," Boehner spokesman Kevin Smith added. The statement was made in an email to CBS News.
In other words, religion is a trait you're born with.
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No, a club foot is a trait that you are born with; religion is a handicap that you bring upon yourself.
Y'know what; I think they're getting crazier in their efforts to fluff the religious right.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2009 : 21:47:39 [Permalink]
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Well, actually Raw Story concluded those conclusions for Boehner. Those statements, that being gay is a choice and that one is born with a religion were nowhere actually attributed to Boehner.
Each was separately (and weakly) implied: "just not protections for things like being gay -- which conservatives occasionally claim is a choice," and "'He does not support adding sexual orientation to the list of protected classes,' ... In other words, religion is a trait you're born with."
Boehner is certainly a bigot and a jerk in general, but that was some mighty poor journalism. It's quite possible that Boehner believes both those absurdities, but saying that's what he said when he didn't is simply lying on Raw Story's part. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 10/14/2009 22:06:10 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2009 : 01:15:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Boehner is certainly a bigot and a jerk in general, but that was some mighty poor journalism. It's quite possible that Boehner believes both those absurdities, but saying that's what he said when he didn't is simply lying on Raw Story's part.
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I don't think it's even an issue whether Boehner* believes those things, it's that those are the logical consequences of the position he advocates. He said he "supports existing federal protections based on immutable characteristics." Except existing federal protections aren't based on immutable characteristics unless he's defining religion as somehow immutable, despite it being a chosen belief system that people regular leave or swap for another one (for example, I was raised Roman Catholic but ended up being an atheist); and only if sexual preference is mutable, i.e. a "lifestyle choice" -- A view not endorsed by the APA, to say the least.
Far from being untrue to Boehner's statements, Raw Story actually accepted his words at face value and assumed Boehner meant what he said. I don't really see how that can be considered dishonest. I think it's great to see a news organization that actually takes the time to evaluate a politician's statements. Review them for factual accuracy, logical consistency, and agreement with professional consensus. I'd like to see a whole lot more of that in journalism today, actually. Don't just print whatever comes out of the mouths of Politicos like a Soviet secretary taking dictation. Don't give equal time to "all sides," just the correct one.
So I don't call this an example of poor journalism at all. I wish more news reporting agencies called out politicians like Boehner who try to sell the flimsiest of pretexts as reasonable objections to the American public just so they don't have to admit that what they're really doing is pandering to naked bigotry.
*His name's Boner!  That probably explains a lot, actually.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/15/2009 01:24:45 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 02:22:06 [Permalink]
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The Raw Story's headline is: | Religion is not a choice but being gay is, GOP leader’s spokesman says |
That's simply not so. Boehner didn't say that.
This is not a "Raw Story" but an interpretation. There's nothing wrong with interpreting the implications of the positions someone takes, but such interpretations are opinions, not quotes, and should not be presented as someone "saying" something that they did not actually say. The NeoCons do this kind of stuff (and worse!) all the time. It irks me when "my side" does the same. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 04:33:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
The Raw Story's headline is: | Religion is not a choice but being gay is, GOP leader’s spokesman says |
That's simply not so. Boehner didn't say that. |
I know I'm splitting hairs, but I would argue he did say it, just indirectly. For instance, if I say that all my favorite U.S. Presidents have been African Americans, am I saying that Barack Obama is my favorite President? Of course I am, just not in those exact words. But my words don't leave room for any other conclusion. Since there is no ambiguity, only a single conclusion is logically possible.
| This is not a "Raw Story" but an interpretation. |
Actually, there wasn't any interpretation. Raw Story simply said "Look, this is what Boehner said. This is what the words in his sentences mean. These are the only logical possibilities of his argument, and these are the only conclusions which can be drawn."
| There's nothing wrong with interpreting the implications of the positions someone takes, but such interpretations are opinions, not quotes, and should not be presented as someone "saying" something that they did not actually say. |
But I don't really see a lot of "interpretation" here, though. Like my Obama examples earlier, there really is only one possible answer. Nothing to interpret or spin. For instance, let's say I promise to buy all of the land between California and the East Coast. A newspaper writes the story: "H.H. promises to buy Kansas." Now, I never outright claimed I'd buy Kansas, so would that be a dishonest headline? Of course not, because when I promised to buy everything from San Fran to B-more, Kansas is necessarily included in that set.
Assuming Boehner was making a truthful statement about his considered personal views, then what he said logically required two conditions: that religion is innate and homosexuality is not. These aren't presumptions, but the hidden axioms which are required for Boehner's argument to be valid. According to the argument he presented, those two things must be his implicit assumptions. No two ways about it.
The NeoCons do this kind of stuff (and worse!) all the time. It irks me when "my side" does the same.
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NeoCons do lie, Mooner. And it infuriates me. But I don't see this as comparable. Perhaps that's my bias talking, so I'd love to hear every members' own views on this. |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/15/2009 04:34:44 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 09:44:29 [Permalink]
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It seems a bit shady, after reading the actual CBS story, it seems the statements used in the article were at different times and from different people (one from Boehner and one from a representative). This story really only copied a subset of CBS's story, so the author here really didn't add anything, but CBS wrote the story in a less self-involved way -- e.g. they got an opinion from an author who said pretty much the same thing as the Raw Story author. I do think he is in the position Raw Story claimed, but the title is misleading -- CBS's title for the same story, "Why GOP Leader Opposes Hate Crimes Protection for Gays," is really more appropriate.
Tom Price was misrepresented in the story I think. It seemed to me that Raw Story was implying he felt the same way as Boehner, but he actually said he opposes all hate crime legislation. This is very different and not hypocritical in the same way as Boehner's position. Not sure what I think about hate crime legislation personally, but I think this position is much more legitimate, and at the very least, a logically consistent one.
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/13/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5381671.shtml |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 10/15/2009 09:46:21 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2009 : 10:38:17 [Permalink]
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H.H. said:
| NeoCons do lie, Mooner. And it infuriates me. But I don't see this as comparable. Perhaps that's my bias talking, so I'd love to hear every members' own views on this. |
Seems to me like there are plenty of reasons to criticise Mr Boner, and that this "story" is a stretch. Is the guy a homophobic bigot? Yeah, but there is already enough evidence for that on the record that we don't need to go quite as far as this article does in "interpreting" to make the case. Especially considering that they are quoting one or more of his employees rather than the man himself.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 10/15/2009 10:40:03 |
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I didn't know that!
