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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:40:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. |
So the idea that auto insurance is mandated is repugnant to you? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:49:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb:
The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. |
Oh come on Robb. What do you think taxes are? Does it piss you off that you must contribute to government mandated products? Like two wars, for example? Do you think our infrastructure is more important than health care for all? Are you willing to give up your social security or medicare? Do you know what happens if you don't pay your taxes? |
I already said that the 16th ammendment is an affront to freedom as well. Its ok to collect taxes, we need them, but not by force.
| There are already a lot of government mandated things that we must pay for. Why is the one that will actually lower the cost of health care, and will make it possible for millions of Americans who lack health insurance now to be covered, the one that bothers you? |
Did you get that directly from Pelosies website?
| Don't you think that at least one insurance company should be a not for profit company? I think all of them should be. |
No. If they want to be great.
Let me know when you refuse to pay for registering your car in the name of freedom. (Of course, you can just stop driving it, but hey, there is a public option in most cities. Buses for one.)
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I have never agreed with this as well. Why does healthcare have to be mandated? Why not let people decide and if they refuse to buy it, then make them pay full price when they get sick. Why take a choice away from people even if its a bad one? Same with car insurance. Whats wrong with the ideas I put in my last post? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:51:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. |
So the idea that auto insurance is mandated is repugnant to you?
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Yes |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:55:18 [Permalink]
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Robb:
Did you get that directly from Pelosies website? |
No. Do you get your stuff directly off the Pat Robertson website? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:06:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. |
So the idea that auto insurance is mandated is repugnant to you?
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It's repugnant to me. It's a bad solution. People who do not have the money to buy auto insurance do not have the money to pay fines and to go without their cars. The problem is that there is no decent public transportation in most places.
The problem with health care is not that people don't want to buy health insurance, the problem is that capitalism makes sure that some people can't afford health care. What we do not need is to force people to pay for insurance they can't afford, which still doesn't cover their health care.
I have insurance and I not only can't afford to get sick, it's getting too expensive for me to get preventative care. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:23:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Robb
The idea that any government can punish their citizens for not buying a governmandated product should be repugnant to all americans. |
So the idea that auto insurance is mandated is repugnant to you?
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It's repugnant to me. It's a bad solution. People who do not have the money to buy auto insurance do not have the money to pay fines and to go without their cars. The problem is that there is no decent public transportation in most places.
The problem with health care is not that people don't want to buy health insurance, the problem is that capitalism makes sure that some people can't afford health care. What we do not need is to force people to pay for insurance they can't afford, which still doesn't cover their health care.
I have insurance and I not only can't afford to get sick, it's getting too expensive for me to get preventative care.
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I hear you. But single payer is not on the table. I think we need to push for what we can get, and work to improve it later. If we don't get this started now, how many more years will we have to wait until it comes up again? If we can get a decent public option, that should help to bring down the cost of coverage.
Sucks. But that's the reality of it. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:35:11 [Permalink]
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I hear you. But single payer is not on the table. I think we need to push for what we can get, and work to improve it later. If we don't get this started now, how many more years will we have to wait until it comes up again? If we can get a decent public option, that should help to bring down the cost of coverage.
Sucks. But that's the reality of it.
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Something better than what we have is not here because we keeping settling for what we can get. Again, I'll wait and see what we get, but so far, this sounds worse than what we have. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:40:23 [Permalink]
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The very thought of insuring one's health is what we should all find repugnant. Healthcare should be a civil right. It should be a basic service like police, clean potable water, firedepartments, and roads.
Everyone pays into the system and everyone gets to use it. You know, like medicare.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:48:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
It's repugnant to me. It's a bad solution. People who do not have the money to buy auto insurance do not have the money to pay fines and to go without their cars. The problem is that there is no decent public transportation in most places. |
I think the problem is that there are too many people who mistakenly think of themselves as ace drivers who would never crash into anything, and so would go without insurance if they weren't forced to buy it. They don't get that accidents happen to the best of drivers (says a guy who's only been responsible for one accident in 22 years of driving).| The problem with health care is not that people don't want to buy health insurance, the problem is that capitalism makes sure that some people can't afford health care. What we do not need is to force people to pay for insurance they can't afford, which still doesn't cover their health care. |
That's not what the bills intend to do. They intend to subsidize insurance for those who can't afford it, by forcing the healthy, rich, young people who think that they can get along without insurance to buy in, like they should, anyway (because cancer can strike at any age, and so can a truck). That's why I asked Robb if he's in favor of protecting the freedom of people to do stupid, immoral things. Some percentage of people who suddenly find themselves requiring lots of health care could have afforded to buy insurance, but chose not to, and that places a burden on us all (as opposed to it being a demonstration of "moral character and fortitude"). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:48:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
The very thought of insuring one's health is what we should all find repugnant. Healthcare should be a civil right. It should be a basic service like police, clean potable water, firedepartments, and roads.
Everyone pays into the system and everyone gets to use it. You know, like medicare.
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Medical personnel should work for us. Get insurance completely out of the picture. Single payer was the centrist compromise. Now, somehow, it's the off the charts radical left nutty idea. The real solution is socialized medicine. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:49:18 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
Something better than what we have is not here because we keeping settling for what we can get. |
Well, actually, we got nothing at all in every previous attempt to reform health insurance since the sixties. Medicare was the last real reform.
Gorgo:
Again, I'll wait and see what we get, but so far, this sounds worse than what we have. |
Time to put pressure on the Senate. But yeah, I suspect it's not going to be great. But some of the provisions even in a weaker bill will allow people with conditions and pre-existing conditions to keep their insurance. But unless there is some way to make the health insurance industry compete for costumers, you may be right. Insurance will still be too expensive for many of us... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 11:52:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I think the problem is that there are too many people who mistakenly think of themselves as ace drivers who would never crash into anything, and so would go without insurance if they weren't forced to buy it. |
Sure. That's the selling point, but what it does is force people who can't afford it to drive without insurance or to lose their jobs because they can't afford to drive. The same thing will happen with health insurance. How will people who can't afford health care afford insurance that's increasingly getting worthless, plus pay for health care? Not a solution.
The solution to both is not to push wasteful ideas like insurance, but to give people health care and public transportation. Get people from behind the wheel and from behind the insurance desk. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 12:53:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Sure. That's the selling point, but what it does is force people who can't afford it to drive without insurance or to lose their jobs because they can't afford to drive. The same thing will happen with health insurance. How will people who can't afford health care afford insurance that's increasingly getting worthless, plus pay for health care? Not a solution.
The solution to both is not to push wasteful ideas like insurance, but to give people health care and public transportation. Get people from behind the wheel and from behind the insurance desk. |
Well, sure, if you put it that way!
But what Robb finds appalling is the government forcing people to buy something. He thinks it's an abridgment of freedom. That abridgment can only get worse if the government mandates nothing but government health care, period.
So to recap: you, Gorgo, find the government mandating health insurance to be repugnant because many people still won't be able to afford health care, while Robb finds the same idea repugnant because nobody will be free to face stupid risks. I just think it's interesting where opposing political views can find common ground. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 12:55:06 [Permalink]
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Oh, and:Originally posted by Gorgo
The solution to both is not to push wasteful ideas like insurance, but to give people health care and public transportation. Get people from behind the wheel and from behind the insurance desk. |
So you're in favor of taking away people's freedom to drive and their freedom to sell insurance?  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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House passes health care reform bill 220-215
