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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2009 : 05:16:07 [Permalink]
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Casey Luskin again, eh? He never fails us, does our casey.
| "If you look at these [evolutionary] schemes, they often very abruptly add a lens or a cornea," said Casey Luskin, a spokesperson for the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based organization that advocates intelligent design. But things don't just appear suddenly in evolution, Luskin said. "You need to evolve things in a step-by-step fashion." (Take a Darwin quiz.) |
Eyes have evolved many times in many different forms. In modern times, a good place to look at primitive eyes are scallops.
They're not terribly efficient eyes, but let a sea star or a skin-diver come near a scallop and it will flutter away like a butterfly. There is no reason not to think that our most ancient ancestor began with something similar.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2009 : 08:40:47 [Permalink]
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Once again, Casey tries to over-simplify matters. It is entirely true that if you remove any part of one of our eyes, it will no longer work, and that can be called "irreducibly complex." But that cannot be taken to mean that it did not evolve from something similar to the eye of a flatworm. And this simplest of eyes probably had it's own genesis back in the Precambrian, perhaps as merely a few light sensitive cells. That is a vision system that is still in use in species today, notably jellyfish and brittle stars.
Here's an interesting article on eyes in general:
3. EYE DESIGN ILLUSTRATIONS
B. Lower animal eyes
Lower animal eye designs are extremely creative and diverse, compared to complex animal eyes. They include variations of all of the major optical design categories that we can sample from categories already discussed in section II. The primary function of the least-complicated lower-animal eyes is to provide indications of the environmental light intensity for sensing danger or for food gathering. For most simple eyes, this is their main function. Some simple eyes do not even have a pinhole optical element to form a simple image. |
It's very well illustrated and worth a read.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:42:13 [Permalink]
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From the article:
Okay. I am just freaking fed up with creationist jargon being used by the media, and even by those who understand that evolution happens, using terms invented by creationists. I'm not an "Evolutionist." I don't "believe" in evolution. This shit just keeps getting worse, and it's very disappointing when I see a science magazine or those who do bother to argue with ID or "Scientific" Creationists to stoop to using, and thereby legitimizing creationist terminology, created to give the appearance of this being two sides of a legitimate debate. "Evolutionist" my ass. "Darwinist" my ass. I do wish that at the very least, those who are fighting to not allow bad science (or no science) to be seen as equal to the real science that is going on, would be a bit less helpful to our advisories attempts at framing the debate, as though there really is a debate.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:20:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
From the article:
Okay. I am just freaking fed up with creationist jargon being used by the media, and even by those who understand that evolution happens, using terms invented by creationists. I'm not an "Evolutionist." I don't "believe" in evolution. This shit just keeps getting worse, and it's very disappointing when I see a science magazine or those who do bother to argue with ID or "Scientific" Creationists to stoop to using, and thereby legitimizing creationist terminology, created to give the appearance of this being two sides of a legitimate debate. "Evolutionist" my ass. "Darwinist" my ass. I do wish that at the very least, those who are fighting to not allow bad science (or no science) to be seen as equal to the real science that is going on, would be a bit less helpful to our advisories attempts at framing the debate, as though there really is a debate.
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Of course there is Creationist debate -- we use it to catch de Creationist fish....  Sorry, couldn't resist. Good mini-rant, though.
What it is, I think, is the Creationist's current, pathetic attempt to frame "Darwinism" as a religious set of beliefs. That is a slimy bit of deception that fools no one, not even those horse's asses who came up with it. But it's out there for the rank and file to argue with and get ridiculed for it by the likes of thee & me. Unfortunately, the popular press has also picked up on it and decided that it will help sell copies, whores that they are. National Geographic, which is not a scientific journal to start with, seems to have followed along. Ah well.
These attempts to peddle copies has gotten NG into trouble before and their reputation still has something of a tarnish from their utterly stupid attempt to scoop everyone on Archaeoraptor. Even so, it's still one of the better publications, but, as with all the popular press, it must be taken in with cautious consideration.
The press ever wants us to buy the pig without looking in the poke first. Alas, too many of us do just that, which explains the success of FOX nooze.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 15:48:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
What it is, I think, is the Creationist's current, pathetic attempt to frame "Darwinism" as a religious set of beliefs.
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They don't know how to think any other way. Their world has always been ruled by belief rather than evidence. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 22:13:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Okay. I am just freaking fed up with creationist jargon being used by the media, and even by those who understand that evolution happens, using terms invented by creationists. I'm not an "Evolutionist." I don't "believe" in evolution. |
Could it be that journalists are people who believe in spreading bullshit and other kinds of manure?
I know mainstream "journal" doesn't mean manure-spreader originally, but somewhere the word must have evolved into what it means today. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 23:07:16 [Permalink]
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| I use to have the same frustration and anger. For the sake of my sanity and to keep life as enjoyable as it can be, I never (any more) argue the point with those who refuse to think for themselves or continue to deceive themselves and others. I am done dealing with and getting annoyed the religious scumbags that feed off of the gullible, weak minded and intellectually lazy. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
| Edited by - sailingsoul on 11/24/2009 23:08:37 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 05:33:54 [Permalink]
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Here's something else that should raise blood pressures to some degree:
="Happy Anniversary, Origin…some bad news
Category: Creationism
Posted on: November 24, 2009 5:52 PM, by PZ Myers
The media can't let today pass by without doing something stupid, so here are a few unfortunate faux pas from our news outlets.
Newsweek has published a dozen reasons to celebrate Darwin. The first? Darwin wasn't an atheist! Huzzah! He also wasn't a Jew, let's celebrate that!
The second isn't much better. Darwin mentioned "the Creator" once in the second and subsequent editions, therefore you can find God in the story of evolution! Snap your fingers in the face of an atheist for that, believers! You can read the rest, but they're all rather pathetic.
CNN has also published a long piece of tripe from Stephen Meyer. Yeesh, it's the same old nonsense: Darwin is controversial (nope, he's only controversial among ignoramuses), the fossil record and the Cambrian explosion refute evolution (nope, they confirm a pattern of change over geological history), "many biologists now doubt…" (nope, few biologists do, and they all seem to be kooks), DNA is a digital code and a software program (nope, that's a metaphor, and a pretty bad one, actually), there is evidence of design in cells (nope, if there were, I'd expect some IDiot to show it to me—they never do). It's an awful, boring, tired old piece trumpeting the same assertions the Discovery Institute has been making for 15 years. When will the media learn that nothing those bozos say is ever news."
From PZ, of course.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 10:08:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Here's something else that should raise blood pressures to some degree:
="Happy Anniversary, Origin…some bad news
Category: Creationism
Posted on: November 24, 2009 5:52 PM, by PZ Myers
The media can't let today pass by without doing something stupid, so here are a few unfortunate faux pas from our news outlets.
Newsweek has published a dozen reasons to celebrate Darwin. The first? Darwin wasn't an atheist! Huzzah! He also wasn't a Jew, let's celebrate that!
The second isn't much better. Darwin mentioned "the Creator" once in the second and subsequent editions, therefore you can find God in the story of evolution! Snap your fingers in the face of an atheist for that, believers! You can read the rest, but they're all rather pathetic.
CNN has also published a long piece of tripe from Stephen Meyer. Yeesh, it's the same old nonsense: Darwin is controversial (nope, he's only controversial among ignoramuses), the fossil record and the Cambrian explosion refute evolution (nope, they confirm a pattern of change over geological history), "many biologists now doubt…" (nope, few biologists do, and they all seem to be kooks), DNA is a digital code and a software program (nope, that's a metaphor, and a pretty bad one, actually), there is evidence of design in cells (nope, if there were, I'd expect some IDiot to show it to me—they never do). It's an awful, boring, tired old piece trumpeting the same assertions the Discovery Institute has been making for 15 years. When will the media learn that nothing those bozos say is ever news."
From PZ, of course.
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Oh fer-crying-out-loud!
Maybe I'll just go post something over in the Reality thread. Sure, it's wheel spinning, but at least it doesn't piss me off. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 14:02:25 [Permalink]
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Evolution is undeniable to anyone with functioning eyes and a cerebral cortex. But one doesn't have to be religious to believe in intelligent design.
Something must exist in order to change or be changed, act or be acted upon. If existence is required in order for change to occur, then cause and effect is a function of existence, not the reverse (creation). Bigbangers and creationists BOTH suffer from the WECIB complex (What Else Could It Be). There is an alternative perspective, one that does not diverge from common sense or sound scientific axiom.
http://www.theory-of-reciprocity.com/life.htm
99.9% of the Universe is not detectable to the human sense organs. Matter (mass) is only a condition - one readily transfigurable (according to uncle Al) into energy, which has no humanly perceptible attributes other than the changes it wreaks in the 'masses' it affects.
How easily we dismiss that which we cannot sense, but what MUST exist for the cosmos to be logical. |
| Edited by - THoR on 11/25/2009 14:04:25 |
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Baxter
Skeptic Friend
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 14:03:08 [Permalink]
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To state the obvious, CNN did not "do something stupid" by publishing that "tripe".
I wish PhreakaZoid would drop the cliches and rhetoric. He writes similar to a high-school gothie.
| "It's an awful, boring, tired old piece trumpeting..." |
Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
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"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." ~from Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey
"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." ~Robert G. Ingersoll
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 14:44:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
To state the obvious, CNN did not "do something stupid" by publishing that "tripe". |
That isn't at all obvious. Why do you support journalists who give a platform and air of legitimacy to anti-science creationists? The output of the Discovery Institute is most definitely "tripe" by any definition.
Baxter, if you think ID is intellectually defensible, I'm sure many here would be happy to disabuse you of that notion. But PZ is only stating what intelligent people are already well aware of. Substanceless bitching on your part isn't going to change any minds.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 15:01:18 [Permalink]
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This is an atrocious strawman of what scientists actually say: | In order to reconcile this disparity, scholarly pundits with alphabet soup after their names profess that if you toss just the right combination of terrestrial ingredients into a primordial cauldron and stir it really, really hard for a very long time, you can produce a composite that thinks, propagates and experiences a unique existence as a single identity. That may sound silly (I call it the Pinocchio hypothesis) but which lowly layman in his right mind would dare contradict an entire horde of scholarly pundits, especially when they are immersed in alphabet soup. |
Lowly laymen would do best to get their facts straight before railing against ridiculous caricatures of their own creation. Really, the whole essay goes downhill from there.
He conclusions are pseudoscientific magical thinking, whether the author considers them religious or not:A body is something you wear, not something you are. It does; however, seem to be a necessary tool in order for us to function and think in human terms.
This isn't rocket science. It has nothing to do with religion. It is simple reasoning and elementary deduction. Life is no chemical accident. It is simply the product of a spectrum of elemental particles with the attribute of natural animation that long ago began to manipulate the resources of this planet - 'wear the mud' so to speak. Our physical size is extremely tiny prior to our trek into life (a feature for which anyone who is, was, or ever will become pregnant can be eternally grateful), so it comes as no surprise that we haven't been able to isolate and identify that element within us that compiles and compels our corporal garb. |
Dualism has been dead for a long time now. His idea that fundamental particles are capable of consciousness is unsupported rubbish. Armchair philosophers who dismiss the findings of science in order to speculate on the existence of souls aren't very impressive.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 15:12:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Baxter
I wish PhreakaZoid would drop the cliches and rhetoric. He writes similar to a high-school gothie. |
I bet you wish he'd drop the personal insults, too. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2009 : 16:23:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Baxter
I wish PhreakaZoid would drop the cliches and rhetoric. He writes similar to a high-school gothie. |
I bet you wish he'd drop the personal insults, too.
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And I'll bet Baxter especially wishes PZ would stop flat out kicking Creationist ass every time he confronts those contemptible liars and pathetic morons. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Evolution vs. ID: 6 Bones of Contention
