|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2010 : 05:57:58
|
The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably one of the greatest crimes of the last several decades. Imagine what future historians will say about it -- a nakedly aggressive war launched under the falsest of pretenses, in brazen violation of every relevant precept of law, which destroyed an entire country, killed huge numbers of innocent people, and devastated the entire population. Have we even remotely treated it as what it is? We're willing to concede it was a "mistake" -- a good-natured and completely understandable lapse of judgment -- but only the shrill and unhinged among us call it a crime. As always, it's worth recalling that Robert Jackson, the lead prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials, insisted in his Closing Argument against the Nazi war criminals that "the central crime in this pattern of crimes" was not genocide or mass deportation or concentration camps; rather, "the kingpin which holds them all together, is the plot for aggressive wars." History teaches that aggressive war is the greatest and most dangerous of all crimes -- as it enables even worse acts of inhumanity -- and illegal, aggressive war is precisely what we did in Iraq, to great devastation.
|
Good article. Why are these people still treated with deference?
|
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 06:22:10 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Good article. Why are these people still treated with deference?
|
OOH! OOH! (sticks hand up and waves it excitedly) Can I guess?! Um, is it because there are so many stupid people in this world?
And another question: Why aren't they doing jail time? |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
 |
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 01/30/2010 : 06:43:39 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably one of the greatest crimes of the last several decades. Imagine what future historians will say about it -- a nakedly aggressive war launched under the falsest of pretenses, in brazen violation of every relevant precept of law, which destroyed an entire country, killed huge numbers of innocent people, and devastated the entire population. Have we even remotely treated it as what it is? We're willing to concede it was a "mistake" -- a good-natured and completely understandable lapse of judgment -- but only the shrill and unhinged among us call it a crime. As always, it's worth recalling that Robert Jackson, the lead prosecutor at the Nuremberg Trials, insisted in his Closing Argument against the Nazi war criminals that "the central crime in this pattern of crimes" was not genocide or mass deportation or concentration camps; rather, "the kingpin which holds them all together, is the plot for aggressive wars." History teaches that aggressive war is the greatest and most dangerous of all crimes -- as it enables even worse acts of inhumanity -- and illegal, aggressive war is precisely what we did in Iraq, to great devastation.
|
Good article. Why are these people still treated with deference?
|
It makes my ulcer bleed every time I think about how the heinous crimes of the previous administration will go unprosecuted. 
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 11:23:27 [Permalink]
|
| The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably one of the greatest crimes of the last several decades. |
Total exaggeration.
At best it was a war to remove a mass-murdering dictator who refused to comply with UN sanctions put in place because of previous aggression.
At worst it was a invasion to install a friendly government in an oil rich, traditionally hostile area.
Put this up against atrocities in Kosovo, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, etc. You know, attacks carried out with the sole intention of killing people or seizing land.
Or:
The Iran-Iraq war, which Saddam Hussain initiated by invading oil rich areas of Iran, killing over 1000,000. Is this not seen as one of the greatest crimes of the last several decades? Do people even remember this? OR is it irrelevant because an unpopular American president was not involved.
Sorry for not having my liberal sensibilities shocked and appalled by the invasion of Iraq, but TBH I find it blown out of all proportion just because of the involvement of the USA. |
 |
| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 01/30/2010 11:53:26 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2010 : 15:21:08 [Permalink]
|
| I think the U.S. did do a lot of damage in Kosovo, and Britain did do a lot of damage in Zimbabwe, but he didn't say that Iraq was the greatest crime, just one of the greatest. If you include Bush I's murderous attack, and Clinton's murderous attacks and sanctions, then U.S. involvement in Iraq comes pretty close to the top of the list. Certainly Bush's attack was a violation of international law, and the people of Iraq are much worse off because of it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 02:30:09 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
| The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably one of the greatest crimes of the last several decades. |
Total exaggeration.
At best it was a war to remove a mass-murdering dictator who refused to comply with UN sanctions put in place because of previous aggression. |
And the head of the UN inspectors in Iraq basically said "Call of the attack, Iraq is grouchily complying, and they don't have Weapons of Mass Destruction(tm)"
But the Bush administration wouldn't listen.
| At worst it was a invasion to install a friendly government in an oil rich, traditionally hostile area. |
At worst it was a cynical move but members of the administration to fill their own pockets by awarding no-bid contracts to the weapons industry. Alineation of mostly the entire Earth, 100'000+ dead muslims and 3000+ dead Americans were just collateral damage.
The Iran-Iraq war, which Saddam Hussain initiated by invading oil rich areas of Iran, killing over 1000,000. Is this not seen as one of the greatest crimes of the last several decades? Do people even remember this? OR is it irrelevant because an unpopular American president was not involved.
Sorry for not having my liberal sensibilities shocked and appalled by the invasion of Iraq, but TBH I find it blown out of all proportion just because of the involvement of the USA.
|
The USA had no fucking business in Iraq. Period. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 02:31:27 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you include Bush I's murderous attack... |
Where? Please remind me.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 04:19:16 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Gorgo
If you include Bush I's murderous attack... |
Where? Please remind me.
|
Gulf War I.
This is a small sample of murderous intent.
The overall pattern of U.S. activity in the Gulf shows the intent to impoverish civilians, and kill those that stand in the way, whether innocent bystander or victim of the Ba'ath regime or not. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 05:43:07 [Permalink]
|
What the twin Iraq/Afghanistan fiasco's really represent is the perfectly human refusal to learn from the blunders of others. The fact that they were conceived by an ambitious moron is not at all withstanding because history tells us that great nations and their armed forces are filled with that particular species.
415-413 BC The Athenian Expedition to Syracuse
This hapless expedition ended Athens as a great power. Of the 50,000 Athenians sent to take Syracuse nearly none returned. There were many reasons why the failure was total. It didn't help that the Athenians pottered around the coast of Sicily trying to drum up support, thereby giving the Syracusans time to reinforce. It wasn't terribly useful that the resourceful Athenian commander defected, after his own people had attempted to execute him for impiety.
When the Athenians laid siege to Syracuse, the Syracusan commander merely strengthened his defences, whilst Corinthian and Spartan ships came to their assistance. Many of the Athenians were wiped out by a fever caught from the marshland on which they were camping. Instead of getting out while he could, the Athenian commander decided to stay another month, which gave time for the enemy to prepare an ambush. When the Athenians eventually decided to go home, the Syracusans simply routed the entire Athenian force. |
And a couple more doozies:
811 The Battle of Pliska
King Krum of Bulgaria had been a real pain to the Byzantine emperor, Nicephorus I. Krum had been raiding his territory for too long, so Nicephorus assembled 70,000 men and decided to deal with Krum permanently. For a while, he had Krum on the run, and even burned down Krum's palace. While Krum retreated to regroup, Nicephorus then arrogantly proceeded down a steep valley north of Pliska. Krum seized his moment, and, with vastly inferior numbers, surrounded the Byzantines. After a three-day stand-off, the Bulgars swept into the valley and massacred the demoralized Byzantines. Nicephorus's skull was mounted in silver and used by Krum as his favourite cup.
1187 The Battle of Hattin
Most military blunders are the result of a poor decision rather than bad luck. In this case, it was thanks to the foolishness of one man, King Guy of Lusignan, that Saladin was able to take Jerusalem. In 1187, Saladin was besieging the city of Tiberias, and devised a plot to tempt Guy to try to relieve the city. It was of course a trap, that would lure Guy and his troops into a waterless plateau. Despite the protests of his advisors, Guy's army marched on Tiberias. Many died of thirst, and many more were picked off by the Saracen bowmen. Saladin was then able to go on to victory. |
And so forth. An interesting page.
Taken in historical context, our current idiocy is fairly minor. But what a pity that we can't get the wretched bastards that got us and the world into this pathetic mess. Their skulls would make very nice cups.
I got a sick and sarcastic chuckle when it came to light that there were no WMDs to be found -- anyone paying attention during the aftermath of the first Gulf War already suspected that -- and the plan went from there to regime change in order to save face. And, of course, steal Iraqi oil.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 13:45:38 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Gorgo
Gulf War I.
|
I always thought that Operation Desert Storm was UN-sanctioned, designed to strike back the Iraqi invastion of Kuweit.
This is a small sample of murderous intent.
The overall pattern of U.S. activity in the Gulf shows the intent to impoverish civilians, and kill those that stand in the way, whether innocent bystander or victim of the Ba'ath regime or not.
|
That aparently happened after Desert Storm.
But I agree that denying Iraqi people the right to get clean water was horrific! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 15:06:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
I always thought that Operation Desert Storm was UN-sanctioned, designed to strike back the Iraqi invastion of Kuweit.
|
http://www.newstatesman.com/pdf/johnpilger.htm
On 29 November, the United States got its war resolution. This was made possible by a campaign of bribery, blackmail and threats, of which a repetition is currently under way, especially in countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia. In 1990, Egypt was the most indebted country in Africa. Baker bribed President Mubarak with $14bn in "debt forgiveness" and all opposition to the attack on Iraq faded away. Syria's bribe was different; Washington gave President Hafez al-Assad the green light to wipe out all opposition to Syria's rule in Lebanon. To help him achieve this, a billion dollars' worth of arms was made available through a variety of back doors, mostly Gulf states.
Iran was bribed with an American promise to drop its opposition to a series of World Bank loans. The bank approved the first loan of $250m on the day before the ground attack on Iraq. Bribing the Soviet Union was especially urgent, as Moscow was close to pulling off a deal that would allow Saddam to extricate himself from Kuwait peacefully. However, with its wrecked economy, the Soviet Union was easy prey for a bribe. President Bush sent the Saudi foreign minister to Moscow to offer a billion-dollar bribe before the Russian winter set in. He succeeded. Once Gorbachev had agreed to the war resolution, another $3bn materialised from other Gulf states.
The votes of the non-permanent members of the Security Council were crucial. Zaire was offered undisclosed "debt forgiveness" and military equipment in return for silencing the Security Council when the attack was under way.
Occupying the rotating presidency of the council, Zaire refused requests from Cuba, Yemen and India to convene an emergency meeting of the council, even though it had no authority to refuse them under the UN Charter.
Only Cuba and Yemen held out. Minutes after Yemen voted against the resolution to attack Iraq, a senior American diplomat told the Yemeni ambassador: "That was the most expensive 'no' vote you ever cast." Within three days, a US aid programme of $70m to one of the world's poorest countries was stopped. Yemen suddenly had problems with the World Bank and the IMF; and 800,000 Yemeni workers were expelled from Saudi Arabia.
The ferocity of the American-led attack far exceeded the mandate of Security Council Resolution 678, which did not allow for the destruction of Iraq's infrastructure and economy. When the United States sought another resolution to blockade Iraq, two new members of the Security Council were duly coerced. Ecuador was warned by the US ambassador in Quito about the "devastating economic consequences" of a No vote. Zimbabwe was threatened with new IMF conditions for its debt. The punishment of impoverished countries that opposed the attack was severe. Sudan, in the grip of a famine, was denied a shipment of food aid.
None of this was reported at the time. By now, news organisations had one objective: to secure a place close to the US command in Saudi Arabia. At the same time, Amnesty International published a searing account of torture, detention and arbitrary arrest by the Saudi regime. Twenty thousand Yemenis were being deported every day and as many as 800 had been tortured and ill-treated.
|
42 days of bombing. Unlike what we saw on TV, very little bombing was smart bombing. Cluster bombs, bombing infrastructure, and of course, the "collateral damage" of schools, hospitals and other civilian destruction. Remember the sanctions started before the bombing and lasted about 12 years, the first few years being the most brutal.
Even if you forget the controversy about April Glaspie giving Saddam a green light to go ahead with the attack, there wasn't much reason for the war. Unless you think the U.N. should have attacked the U.S. for attacking Panama, which was an crime just about equal to Iraq's crime. The U.S. said no negotiations, which is a violation of the U.N. Charter, and they stuck with it right through the war. They murdered retreating and surrendering troops, which were mostly victims of Saddam's regime, forced into uniforms, most of the dead didn't want to be in the war. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
| Edited by - Gorgo on 01/31/2010 15:07:40 |
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2010 : 03:11:57 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
That aparently happened after Desert Storm.
But I agree that denying Iraqi people the right to get clean water was horrific!
|
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jan. 16, 1991 was just about the start of the air war against Iraq. They bombed the infrastructure to make sure civilians suffered, as well as cutting off communications and travel routes for Iraqi troops.
After the first couple of days, there was no war at all, only a massacre. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 01:26:10 [Permalink]
|
| White people killing brown people is an atrocity but when brown people kill each-other, it's just news. |
|
|
|
|
Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2010 : 04:28:43 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
White people killing brown people is an atrocity but when brown people kill each-other, it's just news.
|
In the U.S. media, when of the the U.S.'s friends, or the U.S. commits a crime, it's a necessity. When someone else tries to act independently, even within the law, it's the end of the world. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
The invasion of Iraq was unquestionably one of the
