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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2010 : 10:02:51
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I think it's fair to say that most western geologists ridicule the idea that oil and gas were formed any other way than by the decay of ancient plants and animals millions of years ago. Yet, on the other side of the world, in Russia and parts of Europe, the consensus appears to be that oil and gas were abiotically formed deeper in the earth and have percolated upwards to collect below the ancient shales of long extinct ocean beds.
Why such a serious scientific rift? If each side merely dismisses the other as wrong, what's to be gained? It's a bit like two religions declaring each other as heretics.
Surely science has the tools to resolve this issue eventually, if there's enough skepticism to spark it.
[Moved to the General Skepticism folder - Dave W.]
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God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 11:22:13 [Permalink]
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| Well it seems to me that this concept is very thin(and thuroughly debunked), if it were true the oil would be coming out of all the cracks and not just pooling in certain places(places which the other theory correctly identifies BTW) Is there evidence that this is actually supported widely in the East? This is the first Ive heard of that. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 11:29:48 [Permalink]
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From Dr. John Clarke, Peakoil.com
The fact remains that the abiotic theory of petroleum genesis has zero credibility for economically interesting accumulations. 99.9999% of the world's liquid hydrocarbons are produced by maturation of organic matter derived from organisms. To deny this means you have to come up with good explanations for the following observations.
The almost universal association of petroleum with sedimentary rocks.
The close link between petroleum reservoirs and source rocks as shown by biomarkers (the source rocks contain the same organic markers as the petroleum, essentially chemically fingerprinting the two).
The consistent variation of biomarkers in petroleum in accordance with the history of life on earth (biomarkers indicative of land plants are found only in Devonian and younger rocks, that formed by marine plankton only in Neoproterozoic and younger rocks, the oldest oils containing only biomarkers of bacteria).
The close link between the biomarkers in source rock and depositional environment (source rocks containing biomarkers of land plants are found only in terrestrial and shallow marine sediments, those indicating marine conditions only in marine sediments, those from hypersaline lakes containing only bacterial biomarkers).
Progressive destruction of oil when heated to over 100 degrees (precluding formation and/or migration at high temperatures as implied by the abiogenic postulate).
The generation of petroleum from kerogen on heating in the laboratory (complete with biomarkers), as suggested by the biogenic theory.
The strong enrichment in C12 of petroleum indicative of biological fractionation (no inorganic process can cause anything like the fractionation of light carbon that is seen in petroleum).
The location of petroleum reservoirs down the hydraulic gradient from the source rocks in many cases (those which are not are in areas where there is clear evidence of post migration tectonism).
8 ) The almost complete absence of significant petroleum occurrences in igneous and metamorphic rocks (the rare exceptions discussed below).
The evidence usually cited in favour of abiogenic petroleum can all be better explained by the biogenic hypothesis e.g.:
Rare traces of cooked pyrobitumens in igneous rocks (better explained by reaction with organic rich country rocks, with which the pyrobitumens can usually be tied).
Rare traces of cooked pyrobitumens in metamorphic rocks (better explained by metamorphism of residual hydrocarbons in the protolith).
The very rare occurrence of small hydrocarbon accumulations in igneous or metamorphic rocks (in every case these are adjacent to organic rich sedimentary rocks to which the hydrocarbons can be tied via biomarkers).
The presence of undoubted mantle derived gases (such as He and some CO2) in some natural gas (there is no reason why gas accumulations must be all from one source, given that some petroleum fields are of mixed provenance it is inevitable that some mantle gas contamination of biogenic hydrocarbons will occur under some circumstances).
The presence of traces of hydrocarbons in deep wells in crystalline rock (these can be formed by a range of processes, including metamorphic synthesis by the fischer-tropsch reaction, or from residual organic matter as in 10).
Traces of hydrocarbon gases in magma volatiles (in most cases magmas ascend through sedimentary succession, any organic matter present will be thermally cracked and some will be incorporated into the volatile phase, some fischer-tropsch synthesis can also occur).
Traces of hydrocarbon gases at mid ocean ridges (such traces are not surprising given that the upper mantle has been contaminated with biogenic organic matter through several billion years of subduction, the answer to 14 may be applicable also).
The geological evidence is utterly against the abiogenic postulate. |
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"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 12:54:37 [Permalink]
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It's not as though abiotic oil were total woo-woo. For instance, if only a teensy, tiny fraction of UFO sightings had been scientifically confirmed to be ships from Alpha Centauri, "UFOlogy" would not be complete woo.
My understanding is that abiotic oil does exist, but has never been found in commercially valuable quantities. A few years ago, as I recall, Sweden drilled for abiotic oil, but came up with either no oil, or very little. The abiotic oil people still need to find a big strike in order to make their point that abiotic oil is significant.
I hope they don't make that strike, though, as we're already causing a catastrophe with the fossil fuels we have! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 13:39:57 [Permalink]
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| I love the whole, "The rotation of the Earth's core forces it to the surface" claim, lol. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 14:51:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I love the whole, "The rotation of the Earth's core forces it to the surface" claim, lol. |
Must be some kind of natural Archimedes screw in action, huh? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 03/12/2010 18:23:40 |
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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 18:24:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Well it seems to me that this concept is very thin(and thuroughly debunked), if it were true the oil would be coming out of all the cracks and not just pooling in certain places(places which the other theory correctly identifies BTW) Is there evidence that this is actually supported widely in the East? This is the first Ive heard of that.
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I'm certainly not qualified enough to defend the abiotic oil's theory's claims, but there are a few places where oil seeps out on the surface (tar pits and oil sands) but hydrocarbons are fairly unstable in the atmosphere and tend to break down fairly quickly. Apparently there has been oil found in rocks much older than than life on earth, as well as on other planets in the solar system, so for that reason, I'm not sure I'd agree that it's been thoroughly debunked. Actually, I'm not sure a lot of things are as debunked as sometimes claimed. |
God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 18:44:01 [Permalink]
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Mooner.....
| It's not as though abiotic oil were total woo-woo. For instance, if only a teensy, tiny fraction of UFO sightings had been scientifically confirmed to be ships from Alpha Centauri, "UFOlogy" would not be complete woo. |
Or a hell of a lot closer! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 20:13:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Mooner.....
| It's not as though abiotic oil were total woo-woo. For instance, if only a teensy, tiny fraction of UFO sightings had been scientifically confirmed to be ships from Alpha Centauri, "UFOlogy" would not be complete woo. |
Or a hell of a lot closer!
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Huh? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 20:31:03 [Permalink]
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He means, I think, when he says closer, of terrestrial origin.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 22:20:46 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
| He means, I think, when he says closer, of terrestrial origin. |
You are exactly 50% correct! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2010 : 23:03:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
| He means, I think, when he says closer, of terrestrial origin. |
You are exactly 50% correct!
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Oh, I see. My point was just to use the first analogy I could pull out of my ass. Maybe that wasn't a good example. (Analogies do tend to suck on close examination.) I'm not denying UFOs as such, but only denying that they are likely to be of intelligent, extraterrestrial (aside from meteors, falling orbital debris and misidentified astronomical bodies), or inter-dimensional origin, secret Nazi super-science, and/or some kind of magic. I've see no evidence that any UFOs have extraordinary origins.
Likewise, abiotic oil probably exists, since stuff resembling petrochemicals is fairly abundant in the solar system, probably forming part of earth's early accumulation of matter. But any earthbound abiotic oil probably exists only in relatively tiny amounts.
But I do think most UFOs come from even closer than just earth: From the brains of the observer, whether involving psychosis, pranks, or simply not being able to properly identify what's seen. (As a kid, I was a big UFO buff, and routinely misidentified Navy jets over Miramar NAS as flying saucers.) It's the "Unidentified" part that's the problem, making them poster-toys for woosters.
But that's stuff for another thread. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 00:05:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Landrew
I'm certainly not qualified enough to defend the abiotic oil's theory's claims... |
Then perhaps you should stop trying to find excuses for why it might be valid.| ...but there are a few places where oil seeps out on the surface (tar pits and oil sands) but hydrocarbons are fairly unstable in the atmosphere and tend to break down fairly quickly. |
You'll have to define "fairly quickly." Neither the tar in the pits at La Brea nor the asphalt seeps at the Dead Sea evaporate quickly at all. And 21 years after the spill, there are still thousands of gallons of crude oil contaminating Alaskan shoreline from the Exxon Valdez.| Apparently there has been oil found in rocks much older than than life on earth, as well as on other planets in the solar system... |
You should really find support for such ideas, and share it here. Some simple hydrocarbons are readily made through abiotic processes, like the methane and ethane found in the atmosphere on Saturn's moon Titan. But methane and ethane are gasses under Earth's surface conditions, and wouldn't be considered "oil" under any circumstances.| ...so for that reason, I'm not sure I'd agree that it's been thoroughly debunked. |
So vaguely stated, it's a really poor reason to believe anything.| Actually, I'm not sure a lot of things are as debunked as sometimes claimed. |
Most things aren't nearly as well supported as often claimed. Debunkers need only ask for evidence and get none in return to justify disbelief. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 01:35:50 [Permalink]
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Wikipedia has an article on abiotic oil. After plodding through much of it, I'm now unsure there's any real abiotic oil at all.
A key word here: "biomarkers." All petroleum, including that considered by advocates to be abiotic, seems to have certain complex compounds that are almost certainly of organic origin. Such as the biomarker which is a close analog to chlorophyll, below. Abiogenic oil advocates have no explanation for the presence of the biomarkers:
A biomarker in petroleum (left) compared to portion of chlorophyll molecule (right) |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Landrew
New Member
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 10:36:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Wikipedia has an article on abiotic oil. After plodding through much of it, I'm now unsure there's any real abiotic oil at all.
A key word here: "biomarkers." All petroleum, including that considered by advocates to be abiotic, seems to have certain complex compounds that are almost certainly of organic origin. Such as the biomarker which is a close analog to chlorophyll, below. Abiogenic oil advocates have no explanation for the presence of the biomarkers:
A biomarker in petroleum (left) compared to portion of chlorophyll molecule (right)
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The Wikipedia article is probably the fairest balance of evidence on the issue of any single source on the web. The biomarkers are convincing evidence of biological origin and would put the abiotic theory soundly to sleep if it occurred in all petroleum deposits. Without knowing that, it only accounts for some of the petroleum.
Another potential thorn in the side of the biotic oil theory is the recovery of petroleum from basaltic deposits in Russia and elsewhere which date to before the existence of any known life on earth. Until these and other issues are fully resolved, I don't think anyone can conclusively close the case on abiotic oil. |
God bless women, for without them there would be no cookies. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2010 : 20:48:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Landrew
The biomarkers are convincing evidence of biological origin and would put the abiotic theory soundly to sleep if it occurred in all petroleum deposits. Without knowing that, it only accounts for some of the petroleum. |
Where is there any evidence that biomarkers are absent from any petroleum deposit?| Another potential thorn in the side of the biotic oil theory is the recovery of petroleum from basaltic deposits in Russia and elsewhere which date to before the existence of any known life on earth. |
The oldest age for existent basalts that I can find is 3.9 billion years, and that claim is questionable on the basis of numerous other claims that the oldest rock (aside from zircon crystals) is 3.8 billion years old. The oldest fossilized life is some 3.5 billion years old, and it didn't just poof into existence, there was life before then. Within the error bars on the estimates, life as we know it originated on Earth at or before those oldest basalts, so the claim must revolve around the adjective "known," which is disingenuous at best. In other words, without a rather large dose of evidence, the implied claim is unbelievable. The claim as it is written might be true, but it implies nothing about abiotic oil.| Until these and other issues are fully resolved, I don't think anyone can conclusively close the case on abiotic oil. |
You hold an impossible standard. Historical science is hardly ever "fully resolved." But you've offered one claim that is unbelievable, one which seems to be both irrelevant and wrong, and another two which suffer from a lack any evidence. When is the case on abiotic oil going to be opened? Where is the evidence which says that people should give the abiotic oil theories serious consideration? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Abiotic Oil and Gas
