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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2010 : 12:54:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Incidents such as this may happen as a complete mistake |
Did you even listen to the radio conversation?
The Pilot clearly identified all eight of them being armed with AK47s and then some, even though he/we could see clearly that this wasn't the case. He was itching, begging to be allowed to take the shot, and of course his CO (not knowing that he had falsely reported the people as enemy combatants) could do no less then allow him his murdering spree.
This was no fucking mistake. The pilot was begging to murder civilians.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 13:21:31 [Permalink]
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Oh, I'm stunned. Such viciousness.
And they even shot at the clearly unarmed civilians tending to the bodies. Evil.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 13:35:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by
People are calling them intentional child killers, and I personally couldn't tell even with enhanced video, so I'm only defending them from that charge. |
Yep, I agree. The children are not really visible and not mentioned in the audio. If the van had been a legitimate target the gunner could not be blamed.
Not enough reason to kill them and the four clearly unarmed people that were with them. |
I disagree, I think killing unarmed people when they are actually with armed combatants is entirely unavoidable in war. Unavoidable, not justified per se. Wars should only be undertaken if one is willing to accept the death of some number of innocent civilians. Incidents such as this may happen as a complete mistake, it may happen because the soldier is a thug, it may happen people are not being careful, or what have you, but it happens. |
Yes it happen. Sometimes justifiable, but in this case its a crime. And it should be treated as a crime. What is your point? | Incompetence and murder happens outside wars as well. There the culprits are prosecuted, sued and if found guilty convicted. |
Who exactly? The shooter, the pilot, the guy asking permission to shoot, the guy giving permission to shoot, the guy sitting beside the shooter? All of them? |
The gunner/spotter, definitely.
The guy giving permission, yea probably. I'm not sure how his "permission" works, and in the initial attack he is being misled by the false information. But if he is ordering someone to attack a vehicle that is helping wounded that would be a crime by any definition.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 04/06/2010 13:58:07 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 18:39:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by filthy
Hell Doc, spit it out. Me & Dude are big boys now and we can take it -- I too, am disgusted that Gitmo is still running.
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My train of thought started with "every American soldier who takes his own life is a step in the right direction..." and the end station is a lot darker.
Transfer of monetary funds to organizations who use soldiers for target practice is also not off the table. Wouldn't want them to run out of ammo.
     
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I hope this is just venting out of frustration.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 21:12:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Incidents such as this may happen as a complete mistake |
Did you even listen to the radio conversation?
The Pilot clearly identified all eight of them being armed with AK47s and then some, even though he/we could see clearly that this wasn't the case. |
I don't think he said every person had an AK47, maybe he did. 3-4 of them appeared to me to have AK47s and one appeared to have an RPG.
| He was itching, begging to be allowed to take the shot. The pilot was begging to murder civilians. |
I don't think it would be the pilot shooting, but would a shooter not act the same way if he thought enemies were about to get away? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/06/2010 21:32:49 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 21:30:26 [Permalink]
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| I disagree, I think killing unarmed people when they are actually with armed combatants is entirely unavoidable in war. Unavoidable, not justified per se. Wars should only be undertaken if one is willing to accept the death of some number of innocent civilians. Incidents such as this may happen as a complete mistake, it may happen because the soldier is a thug, it may happen people are not being careful, or what have you, but it happens. |
Yes it happen. Sometimes justifiable, but in this case its a crime. And it should be treated as a crime. What is your point? |
My point is that I think the initial shots may have been a mistake. Under the assumption that the people in the van were taking away enemy combatants, I am not sure that shooting them is so bad. I realize it may be in the Geneva Convention or some other agreement not to shoot them, but I think rules in war are stupid. It's a war, someone has already broken some rule to which they agreed (mostly the U.S. in this case), so to hell with "morality."
Not sure where I place the shooters in terms of blame, I'm not discounting any possibility, but in the larger sense, when deciding to have a war, this is what happens, sometimes soldiers are personally at fault, sometimes it's a mistake. I might place blame directly on the soldiers for these attacks, but without question I blame those who made the war happen.
| The guy giving permission, yea probably. I'm not sure how his "permission" works, and in the initial attack he is being misled by the false information. But if he is ordering someone to attack a vehicle that is helping wounded that would be a crime by any definition. |
I'm not really defending these soldiers, I don't know them, maybe they're just thugs who want to kill innocents, but I don't think I have enough evidence to decide this for sure, I cannot be sure it's not a matter of fog of war at this point. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 21:36:30 [Permalink]
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Democracy Now! also has the footage, and Amy Goodman talks with Julian Assange, founder of WikiLeaks and Glenn Greenwald from Salon.com.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/6/massacre_caught_on_tape_us_military |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2010 : 23:03:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
My point is that I think the initial shots may have been a mistake. |
Does not matter. If you make a really bad mistake you will, if not in the US military, be held accountable.| Under the assumption that the people in the van were taking away enemy combatants, I am not sure that shooting them is so bad. |
Well, it is illegal. Somebody must have thought that killing civilians trying to help wounded people was a bad thing. I'm one of them| I realize it may be in the Geneva Convention or some other agreement not to shoot them, but I think rules in war are stupid. It's a war, someone has already broken some rule to which they agreed (mostly the U.S. in this case), so to hell with "morality." |
Phew, that is a really fucked up view. | I'm not really defending these soldiers, |
You just stated that they, as this all ready is a evil war, should be free to do what ever they like. No rules. No morality.
Disgusting!
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
| Edited by - Starman on 04/06/2010 23:22:35 |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 23:27:22 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
Originally posted by Machi4velli
My point is that I think the initial shots may have been a mistake. |
Does not matter. If you make a really bad mistake you will, if not in the US military, be held accountable. |
Not true of people in wars outside the US military -- e.g. see Japanese war criminals in WWII, or most war criminals who were on the winning sides of their wars. I am comfortable assuming there have been war criminals on every side of every war since rules of war were invented (e.g. American revolutionaries sniping British officers), but very little accountability for the winners.
| Under the assumption that the people in the van were taking away enemy combatants, I am not sure that shooting them is so bad. |
Well, it is illegal. Somebody must have thought that killing civilians trying to help wounded people was a bad thing. I'm one of them |
Of course it is a fallacy to suggest illegality implies moral wrongness (I'm not sure that you were, just saying in case). They don't know if they're civilians. Suppose they're support for the actual enemies?
| I realize it may be in the Geneva Convention or some other agreement not to shoot them, but I think rules in war are stupid. It's a war, someone has already broken some rule to which they agreed (mostly the U.S. in this case), so to hell with "morality." |
Phew, that is a really fucked up view. |
This is what happens, I'm not saying it's right. I mean to say rules of war are naive, however well-meaning. "Stupid" wasn't a good characterization.
| I'm not really defending these soldiers, |
You just stated that they, as this all ready is a evil war, should be fee to do what ever they like. No rules. No morality.
Disgusting! |
I didn't say they should be blameless. I didn't say they "should be free to do whatever they like." In fact, I didn't say any of these things you claim I said. I said that innocent people dieing is a reality of war with or without ill intentions. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/07/2010 00:01:00 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 01:29:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I hope this is just venting out of frustration.
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Ask me next month. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 04/07/2010 06:40:51 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 01:44:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
| Under the assumption that the people in the van were taking away enemy combatants, I am not sure that shooting them is so bad. |
Well, it is illegal. Somebody must have thought that killing civilians trying to help wounded people was a bad thing. I'm one of them |
Of course it is a fallacy to suggest illegality implies moral wrongness (I'm not sure that you were, just saying in case). They don't know if they're civilians. Suppose they're support for the actual enemies? |
Right, so why the fuck shoot them, if they are not certain they are enemy combatants? The wounded person was clearly out of commission, and none of the rescuers were armed.
Kill them all and let God sort them out? Is that so much better as morality.?
| I realize it may be in the Geneva Convention or some other agreement not to shoot them, but I think rules in war are stupid. It's a war, someone has already broken some rule to which they agreed (mostly the U.S. in this case), so to hell with "morality." |
| I'm not really defending these soldiers, |
Sounds like you are though.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 02:24:12 [Permalink]
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Machi4velli, I'm not really sure what your point is.
There is little accountability for winners. Of course. And the rich and powerful get away more often with criminal offences.
Should we abolish laws because of this?| Of course it is a fallacy to suggest illegality implies moral wrongness (I'm not sure that you were, just saying in case). |
Nope, did not claim that. My claim was that this was indeed "bad". Legally, a factual claim and morally, a subjective claim. | They don't know if they're civilians. Suppose they're support for the actual enemies? |
If they don't know if they're civilians, how could they possibly justify opening fire? They did not pose any immediate threat to anyone.
It could have been Osama bin Laden with a nuke in the trunk on his way to Disneyland for all I care. The decision to "engage" would still have been a crime as the gunner did not know this. No weapons were visible. The activity was not hostile.| I didn't say they should be blameless. I didn't say they "should be free to do whatever they like." In fact, I didn't say any of these things you claim I said. |
With statements like | I think rules in war are stupid |
and | . It's a war, [....] so to hell with "morality." |
If the rules are stupid, naive or useless (or what ever you do think of them) and morality is not applicable, how could you blame anyone for anything? | I said that innocent people dieing is a reality of war with or without ill intentions. |
Yes, it is. But this is not the problem here.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 09:41:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Starman
| Machi4velli, I'm not really sure what your point is. They don't know if they're civilians. Suppose they're support for the actual enemies? |
If they don't know if they're civilians, how could they possibly justify opening fire? |
It can never be justified, but I find the distinction between intent to kill civilians and accidental killing of civilians (caused by negligence) to be important. I don't know how much to blame them for the initial attack, or how much to blame the person giving permission or whoever else was involved. I don't think that they said the medics were armed yet they were still given permission to shoot. If the first attack is a complete mistake and the second attack is on instructions from a higher-up, I think their status changes significantly. These guys aren't rocket scientists, they've been force-fed chain of command and do what they're told.
It can give support to the idea that it was a mistake, a horrible mistake of seeing an RPG where there is a tripod. I just don't want to place all kills of civilians in war in the same category as someone randomly shooting a person on the street, because in war mistakes that are easy to make have much worse consequences than mistakes in usual life.
| They did not pose any immediate threat to anyone. No weapons were visible. The activity was not hostile. |
Who poses an "immediate" threat? Are all ambushes against non-hostile activity wrong? Weapons did seem to be visible.
| It's a war, [....] so to hell with "morality." |
If the rules are stupid, naive or useless (or what ever you do think of them) and morality is not applicable, how could you blame anyone for anything? |
[/quote]
How could you define morality in a way that isn't completely circular during a war? We can blame whoever we like, send everyone involved to jail for life or hang them or whatever we want to do, but know that it was someone else who put the soldiers into that role, handed them weapons, gave them orders, discipline them if they miss an enemy, and put them in the position for small mistakes to have such terrible consequences. I'm just saying give them a fair hearing, don't automatically convict them with this. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 09:47:35 [Permalink]
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| I'm not really defending these soldiers, |
Sounds like you are though. |
Sorry if it sounds that way, I'm only trying to defend them from being convicted without hearing what everyone involved has to say, what the conditions were, what their mission was, how permission to engage is supposed to work, the information the officer had. I never anywhere said they should not be blamed, only that I'm not sure who of the involved exactly to blame and how much to blame each person. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 10:43:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
only that I'm not sure who of the involved exactly to blame and how much to blame each person.
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I blame "Americans" for electing Bush for his second term. Hell I even blame "you" for his first term. I hold you all collectively responsible for the shit in Iraq. Since Bush was elected, obviously "you" didn't do enough to convice your fellow citizens not to vote for him.
This is not good for my blood pressure. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Collateral murder? Looks like it.
