|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
 Posted - 04/24/2010 : 00:40:47 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
We have a locality near here where every aspect of how buildings and homes look from the outside is controlled by an entity called the "Design Review Board." The DRB specifies what color and type of siding you can have on your house, the style and height of fencing, and even demands plans from a certified architect if you want to install a dog house in your own yard. Anyone who buys property in this place has to agree to these rules because of the master deed which covers every inch of land. |
If a community is designed from the ground up with such a thing in mind, and everyone who buys a home agrees with it, I think there can be a place for such things.
| But that's irrelevant to the real problem, from a libertarian point-of-view, which is that every home-owner's association or condo board is capable of being overrun by a group who can pass draconian new rules over any minority's objections after you've moved in. Nobody, at closing, gets to say, "I agree to these condo rules and only these condo rules." Like the Federal Constitution, the governing documents one agrees to when moving into a managed neighborhood include procedures for changing the rules. |
That very well may be true, I'm not a libertarian. I haven't thought about it that much, but I think maybe we could have regulations that guarantee some level of independence from such groups. I've gotten random calls telling me my mailbox is dirty or the garbage truck left stuff on the sidewalk, I know these groups are breeding grounds for people with too much time on their hands that revel in the power they think they have. I do like that they exist, they do protect property value without being too intrusive if they're ran well. You're right, the formation of them isn't a critical point of discussion. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
 |
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 01:37:36 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
| Corporations do not waste my money on pork. |
A lot of CEOs, shareholders, and bankers take a lot more salary and bonuses than warranted from the corporations that sell you products for prices higher than they need to be. They are wasting money you have paid. |
Define warranted. Of course there are monopolized industries where we have no choice, but in others there are options to avoid a particular corporation or all corporations, though small companies may not be able to sell things as cheaply due to higher overhead as a proportion of production/etc costs. In those industries we aren't forced to buy from them. |
The bonus greed and aparent unethical behaviour in the upper echelons of any and all oil-companies makes it extremely hard to find the small ethical corporation.
Did you justify military action because the UN requested it?
|
It ensures that not one single country can decide to unlawfully invade a country like Iraq and then have Apache helicopter crews flying around murdering innocent civilians.
Any UN mandated military action has very strict (and usually defensive) rules of engagement. Their main purpose is peace-keeping.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 02:17:42 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Robb
Corporations do not take the money I earn by force. |
No, but they gladly see you getting forced to pay for it. Gasoline for your car, electricity for your home. Your very way of life makes those two essential, and threatening to withdraw them is a kind of force. |
I do agree with you here Dr. Mabuse. Monopolized industries need to be regulated from my view. |
Governments too, if the government has the monopoly. And in my experience (from Sweden) this works pretty well.
| Corporations do not take property away for not paying property taxes. |
Banks and companies can have the court put your house on foreclosure if you can't pay them for services used, can't they? |
What would you have them do? Forgive anyone who doesn't pay them? How could they possibly operate? |
Exactly. My point being that Robb's comment was bunk.
| Corporations do not take money for driving on roads that are paid for. |
Don't you have roads with toll-booths where you pay to use the roads owned by corporations? |
State government keeps it for non-road related expenses usually. |
Which seems wrong in my eyes. But that's a political problem, not a failure of government per say. Besides, as voting members of the community, you'll have influence on how the government spends its money. However, you won't have that influence over a corporation unless you become a major shareholder. If 90% of everyone else don't give a shit regarding the product you don't want to buy because of unethical behaviour, the company's loss of business won't be big enough to warrant change.
Also, the toll-booth on a road is pretty much a monopoly on the travel from-A-to-B along that road.
| Corporations do not force the government to be ethical in their finances. |
Yes they do. They can threat the government with lawsuits if it is found that the government unethically favours the business of one company and not another. |
What's wrong with that? Either side forcing the other to be ethical seems positive. |
Nothing. It just proves another of Robb's argument bunk.
| Corporations do not tell me how much salt can be in a product I buy. |
No, they would rather not tell you they have an excessive amount of salt in it at all. The less you know about it, the better off they would be since you'd be in the dark about what they add to the food. |
It's legally required to be written on the package. |
There are regulations that limits the amount of paracetamol in painkillers. The reason for this is health-considerations. You can still overdose it if you like, but forces you to take an active decision to do so. Same with salt: it's a long term killer that obviously needs to be regulated for the sake of the population's health.
| Corporations do not tell me I cannot smoke in a private restaurant or bar. |
The bar or restaurant can tell you not to smoke in their establishment. |
They can't tell every bar or restaurant in existence to also ban it, only their own. Not even sure where I stand on this one, but it's not really analogous. |
It's not in the corporation's interest to care for the well-being of a country's citizens. The government has another mandate and another goal than the corporation.
| Corporations do not spend more of my money than they earn. |
Of course they do. They charge you more than they have to when they sell you stuff, because they are operating for profit. Then give that money to shareholders. |
Only a problem in monopolized industries, otherwise, I don't have to buy it. |
Yet oil companies makes billions in profit. Money they didn't necessarily need to keep their business running. Or health insurance companies, which charge the average citizen 20-25% overhead even though they didn't need it. The Swedish government-run health insurance has an overhead around 2.5% and is still more concerned about providing health care than the bottom line.
| Corporations do not tell me I need topay for a permit to put an awning on my house. |
Though I own my apartment, I need to have my condominium board's permit to put one up. |
If you agreed to the condominium board's rules when you bought the place, so what? |
The same applies to Robb. He wasn't forced at gunpoint to buy the house in that particular county. And since he lives in a democracy, he has the opportunity to propose a motion to change the regulations. Just as I can propose to the condo's annual general meeting to dispense of the awning regulation. However, if I was renting the place, the corporation has the option to tell me to go screw myself.
I would be open to some government regulations on how communities may establish condominium boards. Don't particularly like contracts that would require you to submit to a yet-to-be-formed community governance body.
|
Aren't they required to be democratic?
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Fripp
SFN Regular
USA
727 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 04:48:59 [Permalink]
|
Fostering desire does not equal coercion. I don't have to do anything based on advertising. Sometimes I do, but only after I run it through my filter of "Can I afford this? Do I really want this?"
|
I don't believe I ever said "force" or "coerce". I said that "they can make you think you WANT or NEED something, that your life is incomplete without a consumer good." |
"What the hell is an Aluminum Falcon?"
"Oh, I'm sorry. I thought my Dark Lord of the Sith could protect a small thermal exhaust port that's only 2-meters wide! That thing wasn't even fully paid off yet! You have any idea what this is going to do to my credit?!?!"
"What? Oh, oh, 'just rebuild it'? Oh, real [bleep]ing original. And who's gonna give me a loan, jackhole? You? You got an ATM on that torso LiteBrite?" |
|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 10:22:09 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Fripp
I don't believe I ever said "force" or "coerce". I said that "they can make you think you WANT or NEED something, that your life is incomplete without a consumer good."
|
Well, if it's not coerced, you can counter it, so what's the problem? |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 04/24/2010 10:24:47 |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2010 : 14:17:21 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Robb
I am not against taxes for services we need but I am against too many taxes and wasted money on fraud. Also, one exampel is the Dallas ISD can not tell us where nore than 12 million dollars has gone. These kind f things need to be fixed before we should give them more of our money. |
That is an instance of corruption, not the fault of Government as an institution.
|
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 16:12:51 [Permalink]
|
OK, the salt thing isn't that big of a deal. After all, you can always add your own after-market salt.
There are some provisions of HR3590 that really make me ask WTF.
There is a labling requirement for chain resturaunts and anyone who owns or operates more than 20 vending machines. As usual, the government has not looked into the cost to the small businessman to comply with such capricious and random lawmaking.
It's not like the chain restuaraunts haven't got these things available by request. The vending machine operators are just innocent bystanders. Let's face it, if you are in front of the machine filled with junk, bets are that what you'll get out will be empty calories.
Don't get me started on the legality of requiring people to buy health insurance. The auto-insurance argument falls flat because driving is a privledge, living is not. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9697 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 21:13:07 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Don't get me started on the legality of requiring people to buy health insurance. The auto-insurance argument falls flat because driving is a privledge, living is not.
|
I agree. Heath insurance should be tax-funded, and cover everyone. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 21:39:31 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Heath insurance should be tax-funded, and cover everyone. |
Why not forget the "insurance," and just make health care universal and tax-funded? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 22:24:46 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Heath insurance should be tax-funded, and cover everyone. |
Why not forget the "insurance," and just make health care universal and tax-funded?
|
Yes, indeed! |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
|
|
|
@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2010 : 22:32:38 [Permalink]
|
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Heath insurance should be tax-funded, and cover everyone. |
Why not forget the "insurance," and just make health care universal and tax-funded?
|
Yes, indeed!
|
I agree 100%. And lets be honest, despite the protests from the right, the when people voted in the last election the expected more socialism. We wanted it and we got it. Lets go all the way with it. It's what the majority voted for. And I love it when Glenn Beck cries. This would really set that baby off!
@
|
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law!
Sportsbettingacumen.com: The science of sports betting |
|
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 04/26/2010 : 03:00:14 [Permalink]
|
If Beck isn't crying, you're not doing it right.
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2010 : 06:31:50 [Permalink]
|
We are mammals and all mammals require a bit of salt in one form or another in their diets.
That said, salt has been an all but priceless commodity long before humans began to write history. It was an important trade item and was used as money in some cultures. It was/is used to preserve foods and to cook them as well as a seasoning. A fish baked buried in rock salt is delicious. During the cooking, the salt solidifies and can be chipped away, resulting in: just right.
We've all heard people described as "worth his salt" and the best sailors are described as "salty."
Too much salt, though, can be downright poisonous. Don't believe it? Go out and find a clean piece of ocean, if there are any left, and drink your fill....
I'll tell you a story of a misfortune that happened to me just last week. I went to the store and, among other things, I bought a package of instant rice and some kind of pasta (vermicelli? Don't remember); Great Value brand. That evening, I nuked it according to directions, and took a taste. It was rather like a lite version the aforementioned drink of seawater. I spat the bite into the trash and dumped the rice out into the yard for the 'possum. And then, I fired off an e-mail to Great Value. Whether or not I will receive an answer remains to be seen.
But I supported the regulation of salt and sugar at the corporate level before this incident and I sincerely hope it passes. It is not for the corps to decide how much of those commodities I should have.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
|
|
|
Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
|
 |
|
|
|
So it starts
