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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 05/14/2010 : 04:21:49 [Permalink]
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| It doesn't mitigate the shock of you saying - apparently quite seriously - that you'd kick the crap out of a stranger for something written on his t-shirt. |
I find it quite shocking that an off-the-cuff remark about potentially kicking a ficticious America haters ass would be so shocking.
Maybe I'm a little more rough around the edges than you are used to. I dunno. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 06:51:25 [Permalink]
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The shocking part is that your first response to a criticism of something you hold sacred is potential violence.
As I said, it is exactly the response that Muslims are having towards cartoon images of their ridiculous prophet.
This thread is wandering all over, which is kinda funny.....
But get back to me on this one and the healthcare thing when you have a minute. I'm still interested to know if you think the "good" people of your hometown are willing to pay for the healthcare of others without being required by law to do it.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 07:21:49 [Permalink]
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The shocking part is that your first response to a criticism of something you hold sacred is potential violence.
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Shit, I've been in fights about much less important things but that is another topic for another day.
But get back to me on this one and the healthcare thing when you have a minute. I'm still interested to know if you think the "good" people of your hometown are willing to pay for the healthcare of others without being required by law to do it.
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Lets say a guy from my hometown accidently cut his leg off with a chainsaw and had no insurance. The most likely response from the townfolk would be to organize a fundraiser to raise money to help the fellow out. This would happen with caring hearts and open wallets.
I'm not sure what kind of answer you are looking for.
My thought process concerning my reconsideration of position on this subject is as follows:
While it is obvious to me that it would be ideal for all citizens to have access to healthcare I am not sure if I trust congress to be able to accomplish it efficiently. Our government is not known for it's wise use of financial resources.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 08:19:14 [Permalink]
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| Freedom of speech protects you from the government interfering. Not from getting jacked in the mouth by an ordinary citizen. |
No, freedom of speech also protects you from others threatening you with physical harm if you voice an unpopular position. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 08:36:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
The shocking part is that your first response to a criticism of something you hold sacred is potential violence.
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Shit, I've been in fights about much less important things but that is another topic for another day.
But get back to me on this one and the healthcare thing when you have a minute. I'm still interested to know if you think the "good" people of your hometown are willing to pay for the healthcare of others without being required by law to do it.
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Lets say a guy from my hometown accidently cut his leg off with a chainsaw and had no insurance. The most likely response from the townfolk would be to organize a fundraiser to raise money to help the fellow out. This would happen with caring hearts and open wallets.
I'm not sure what kind of answer you are looking for.
My thought process concerning my reconsideration of position on this subject is as follows:
While it is obvious to me that it would be ideal for all citizens to have access to healthcare I am not sure if I trust congress to be able to accomplish it efficiently. Our government is not known for it's wise use of financial resources.
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And the for-profit Insurance companies are any better?
A few years back, the VA installed a new hip on my port side, total replacement. Currently, my left leg is slightly shorter than the right, and VA hospital food is scarcely fit to eat, but I ain't bitchin'. I became ambulatory again and it cost me nothing out of pocket.
Y'know, everybody tells me that I've paid my dues, and they are right. I have. In spades. But what dues does a poorly educated, single mother, unable to afford health insurance and flipping burgers at a grease pit pay? I suspect that, in their way, they are as high as mine.
I don't trust our Congress at all, but if the alternative is the insurance thieves, I'll go with Congress. At least I can try to vote those bastards out on the street every other year.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 09:21:14 [Permalink]
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| But what dues does a poorly educated, single mother, unable to afford health insurance and flipping burgers at a grease pit pay? |
If she's at least trying by flipping burgers she has my willingness to help.
Unfortunately many of these poorly educated single mothers don't do a damn thing to better themselves. These are the types that my wife works with and I feel contempt for. It is only the children that suffer. How much education does it take to know that if you spread your legs for everyone then 9 months later a baby squirts out? |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 11:17:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
| But what dues does a poorly educated, single mother, unable to afford health insurance and flipping burgers at a grease pit pay? |
If she's at least trying by flipping burgers she has my willingness to help.
Unfortunately many of these poorly educated single mothers don't do a damn thing to better themselves. These are the types that my wife works with and I feel contempt for. It is only the children that suffer. How much education does it take to know that if you spread your legs for everyone then 9 months later a baby squirts out?
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Then we should kill them as quickly as we discover them to alleviate the situation?
No, no. Now you are trying to insert morality into something that is, or should be, blind to it. There are a lot of unwed mothers who are not promiscuous and barely getting by out there. They have offspring to raise; children as likely to get sick or injured as any other.
Morality is not the question; compassion is. Compassion and the duty of our fucked-up government to act toward the benefit of all it's citizens.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 11:50:47 [Permalink]
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| Then we should kill them as quickly as we discover them to alleviate the situation? |
Of course not. I have no idea what we should do with them. Their lack of effort to better themselves and their feeling of entitlement really pisses me off.
A thought: I was moved by a personal story of someone who worked hard all of their life and fell on hard times. It is easy to have compassion in a situation like that.
Why does it seem so wrong for me to be moved in the opposite direction by the stories I hear every night about the lazy good for nothings out there? Is it wrong for me to feel that these people should have their kids taken away from them and place them in a home with people who care enough about them to take care of them?
It's OK for me to make a decision based on morality in one case because it had the desired effect most of you wanted but not the other because you find my feelings in bad taste?
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 12:11:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Why does it seem so wrong for me to be moved in the opposite direction by the stories I hear every night about the lazy good for nothings out there? Is it wrong for me to feel that these people should have their kids taken away from them and place them in a home with people who care enough about them to take care of them?
It's OK for me to make a decision based on morality in one case because it had the desired effect most of you wanted but not the other because you find my feelings in bad taste? |
Nope. The problem is the idea that the government should be involved in deciding whose hard-luck story is morally acceptable. We want public support for everyone, even those we have no compassion for, because once we get to that minimum level, that's when we'll be able to relax a bit and discuss techniques or mandates with which to deal with the entitlement attitude that so pisses you off. The bigger problem right now is people dying on the streets (the rate should be zero, except for those people who refuse public help), so it should have a higher priority than punishing welfare queens (the rate will always be non-zero, but it's a separate question on how we minimize it).
And anyway, for all you really know, Kil was lying. That's the main argument for not relying upon compassion for actually doling out money (even voluntarily within a small community), but instead on documented income levels and other indicators of need which can be objectively measured. Compassion's only needed as a motivator to pass the necessary legislation. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 13:01:47 [Permalink]
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| We want public support for everyone, even those we have no compassion for, because once we get to that minimum level, that's when we'll be able to relax a bit and discuss techniques or mandates with which to deal with the entitlement attitude that so pisses you off. |
I see your point but it doesn't make me any less pissed at the lazy and entitled. I'll have to stew on this idea for a while.
| And anyway, for all you really know, Kil was lying. |
Well I certainly hope not because that was the story that got me thinking about changing my position on this subject. If it were a deliberate lie then it has the potential to flip my attitude right back to a "fuck 'em" attitude.
Sociopaths have feelings too dontcha know. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 05/14/2010 13:02:58 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 13:17:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I see your point but it doesn't make me any less pissed at the lazy and entitled. I'll have to stew on this idea for a while. |
I'm not trying to make you less pissed off at the lazy and inappropriately entitled. I'm pissed at them, too, because they make it that much harder to get good, universal programs in place. But they're outnumbered by the truly needy, who need our help much more than the lazy will pay attention to your scorn.
So, first we get into place the programs that will ensure that nobody dies of starvation or exposure who doesn't want to, and then we round up the undeserving in re-education camps and brainwash them so their only thought will be, "I must help my society." |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 13:23:42 [Permalink]
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But they're outnumbered by the truly needy, who need our help much more than the lazy will pay attention to your scorn.
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Are they? I wish there was a way to get hard numbers. The most rare thing that my wife sees is someone truly trying to better themselves.
| and then we round up the undeserving in re-education camps and brainwash them so their only thought will be, "I must help my society." |
Alright! Finally something we can both agree on!
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 13:43:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Are they? I wish there was a way to get hard numbers. |
I think the "welfare queen" image is more a product of Republican propaganda than it is a real problem.| The most rare thing that my wife sees is someone truly trying to better themselves. |
Well, I certain can't argue that your wife doesn't see what she sees, but which program is she working for?| Alright! Finally something we can both agree on! |
Hehehe.
I'm pretty sure that we can agree that people dying in the streets is bad, too. After all, our tax money goes towards the inquest and disposal of the body. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 15:26:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I'm not trying to make you less pissed off at the lazy and inappropriately entitled. I'm pissed at them, too, because they make it that much harder to get good, universal programs in place. But they're outnumbered by the truly needy, who need our help much more than the lazy will pay attention to your scorn. |
I don't know about this, but I'm not sure whether this is relevant to the discussion. At some point abuse of wellfare programs was rampant in the Netherlands. Subsequently, programs were put into place to tackle the abuse. From what I heard, abuse of the programs is down at present.
So, first we get into place the programs that will ensure that nobody dies of starvation or exposure who doesn't want to, and then we round up the undeserving in re-education camps and brainwash them so their only thought will be, "I must help my society."
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Or do them both at the same time. Tie your wellfare to strict requirements. It's what worked for the Netherlands, at least up to a point.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2010 : 15:29:11 [Permalink]
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| One thing for your consideration Ebone4rock, is that the experiences of your wife may give a biased view? Since the ones that do well, will make use of your wife's program only temporarily, while the lazy bums keep needing attention? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Tea baggers take over Maine Repugs
