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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 06/05/2010 : 11:30:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
I know that our goal at some of those was to PROVOKE a hostile response.
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If you talk about provoking a response in the context of someone getting shot in the head four times and once in the chest, then you're siding with the Israelis.
They could have towed the boat without even boarding. They decided it would be better to come in shooting. That is not provoked, that is just criminal. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 11:48:56 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
If you talk about provoking a response in the context of someone getting shot in the head four times and once in the chest, then you're siding with the Israelis. |
What are you talking about? Find exactly where I said that any of this was an okay thing for the Israeli solders to do? I have constantly referred to what they did as an over-reaction. And why are you not arguing with Mab about this too? He has said pretty much the same things as I have been saying.
Mab:
Putting up token resistance has political value, I'm sure you can agree on that. Those taking up any kind of arms to defend the ship was in immediate danger of being killed by Israeli soldiers, and I'm pretty sure they were aware of that too. However, it seems like they underestimated the risk... |
Gorgo:
They could have towed the boat without even boarding. They decided it would be better to come in shooting. That is not provoked, that is just criminal. |
Criminal or not, everyone in the flotilla knew that the boats might be boarded and searched. This was no surprise. No one who took part in the protest has denied that. And if they knew that that was a strong possibility, then the idea was to provoke it by being where they were, for political reasons. This is not rocket science Gorgo. It's text book activism.
Are you really that naive about the intentions of the flotilla?
And hey, I'm really beginning to be offended by your accusation that I am siding with Israel on this. Go back and read all that I have written and stop obsessing on the word "provoked." I know that you hate war, but that doesn't mean that the side you favor doesn't engage in it. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 12:43:46 [Permalink]
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| What evidence is there that the flotilla provoked the violent response from the Israelis? From what I can tell, the activists were defending their ship from (literally) a hostile takeover. The Israelis decided to overreact and be violent. |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 13:18:42 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
What evidence is there that the flotilla provoked the violent response from the Israelis? From what I can tell, the activists were defending their ship from (literally) a hostile takeover. The Israelis decided to overreact and be violent.
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If your plan is to port in a blockaded country, then a search and diversion of your boat can be expected. There is much presidence for that kind of action. That this event occurred in international waters puts the legality of boarding the ships headed to a blockaded country into question.
That said, if you know your ship might be boarded and decide to resist with violence, and the country in question thinks it's within its rights to do what its doing, and you know that they think that, then the violent defense of your ship becomes a provocation for an escalation in return violence. Pipes against guns are not a good match up, however. The Israeli's over-reacted even if they were met with violence.
Now, here is where we are getting conflicting reports. If the Israeli's came down shooting, and the people on the ships were defending themselves from that, then there can be no question that the intent of the Israeli's was murderous. I tend to doubt that because of how mind bogglingly stupid such an action would be. Plus, the deaths only occurred on one ship which suggests that the activists aboard one ship behaved differently than those aboard the other ships. I'm not suggesting that the Israeli's were nice to the people on the other ships. But clearly, if they had wanted to kill everyone, they could have.
In general, a hostile takeover, unless your ship turns around, can be expected. And I suspect that it was expected or there would have been no point in going out there in the first place. This was, after all, a protest to test the legality of the blockade and to bring attention to the situation in Gaza.
The sad part is the wrongheadedness on the part of Israel toward Gaza. If it weren't for that, none of this would have happened.
Now I will get more flack from Gorgo...
Edited. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 19:10:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by podcat
What evidence is there that the flotilla provoked the violent response from the Israelis? From what I can tell, the activists were defending their ship from (literally) a hostile takeover. |
You say this as if the activists weren't aware that they were running the Israeli blockade. That was, after all, what they were protesting against. Arab media is reporting that the activists were preparing weapons hours before they were boarded, so not only were they aware of what was going to happen, they also intended to fight back. Hell, before the raid even occurred the group released a statement saying, "A violent response from Israel will breathe new life into the Palestine solidarity movement, drawing attention to the blockade." Sounds to me like they were ready, willing and able to become martyrs for the cause.
None of this justifies Israel's response. Let's just not pretend that anyone on those ships was surprised that Israel did decide to board them.| The Israelis decided to overreact and be violent. |
The blockade itself seems to be an over-reaction. The activists were clearly intending to taunt the school-yard bully, who was already hypervigilant and aggressive from previous perceived slights. The victims went looking for a fight and they found one, which is why they aren't completely blameless. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2010 : 23:32:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
The boarding was not a surprise to me either. [b]But they violated international law when they boarded the ship on international water! |
Of course they did, but my point was that they were not realistically defending the ship, they knew they had no chance of protecting it if the Israelis wanted it.
| It's about fucking time Obama starts chastising Israel for braking the rules. They have a lot to answer for... |
He should, he has chastised them for a long while in words, only veiled threats of someday not being so closely allied, but no one should believe that based on his actions.
| Eyewitness reports in Swedish media said Israeli commandos were firing even before they set one foot on the ships. |
And eyewitness reports said they didn't.
| They weren't Westerners, they were Mussel-men or otherwise enemies of the God's Chosen State of Israel. |
There were Westerners on the ship -- an author and MP from Sweden, 28 Brits, Greek people. (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8947/) I'm not sure whether they were muslims.
| Putting up token resistance has political value, I'm sure you can agree on that. |
Yes
| Those taking up any kind of arms to defend the ship was in immediate danger of being killed by Israeli soldiers, and I'm pretty sure they were aware of that too. However, it seems like they underestimated the risk |
I don't know that. I have the reports of involved parties who hate each other and want the other to look like criminals which contradict each other. Some more forensics and coroner work could help the activists prove their case.
| The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defence and in response to attacks by the activists. |
Close range shots alone, I think, do not undermine the Israeli argument about self defense. Self defense should not, from my view, be a valid excuse when you're being attacked on a ship you hijacked. It's convoluted either way and it is ridiculous the activists are in the position to have to refute the argument of self defense, but the reality is that this is the position they are forced into. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 00:18:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Are you really that naive about the intentions of the flotilla?
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Blaming the victim. The girl wasn't a goody two shoes. She was raped because she wore a mini skirt.
I'm getting insulted by your insults about naïveté and thinking in black and white, but that doesn't change the fact that you're saying that someone can "provoke" a crime. You're blaming the victim. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 06:10:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
They weren't Westerners, they were Mussel-men or otherwise enemies of the God's Chosen State of Israel. |
There were Westerners on the ship -- an author and MP from Sweden, 28 Brits, Greek people. (http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8947/) I'm not sure whether they were muslims. |
Ok, you missed the irony/sarcasm there, or I didn't indicate it clearly enough. First, there were several ships. The MP and the author wasn't on the ship with the murdered activists, which apparently had a larger number of Turkish citizens.
My sarcasm was supposed to point out that the crews being Westerners wasn't as important as the fact they mostly belonged to different ethnical groups, or an opposing religious view: One that is theologically at war with Israeli "state religion". Since the crews are defined as enemies of the Israeli state, using over-kill is morally just in the fucked up mind of the crazy religious zealots and soldiers that have been spoon-fed lies at least since the day they were conscripted.
| Putting up token resistance has political value, I'm sure you can agree on that. |
Yes
| Those taking up any kind of arms to defend the ship was in immediate danger of being killed by Israeli soldiers, and I'm pretty sure they were aware of that too. However, it seems like they underestimated the risk |
I don't know that. I have the reports of involved parties who hate each other and want the other to look like criminals which contradict each other. |
(emphasis mine)
Do you believe that includes Swedish authors, members of parliament, or other humanitarian relief-workers of many different nationalities? Not everyone on the boarded ships were drooling crazed suicidal nuts hellbent on murdering the opposition.
Some more forensics and coroner work could help the activists prove their case. |
I hope so. But the most important is that the work is conducted or at least monitored by independent parties. There needs to be full disclosure from Turkey, because we don't want Israel trying to blame Turkey of manufacturing evidence. The Israeli propaganda machine is much more effective than the American Neocon spin-machine, and it's in the Israeli religious population's egotistical self-interest to believe in it so much more than the American one.
As the accusations of provocation and wrong-doings flies from all camps, indisputable evidence of really happened is of vital importance.
The fact that Israeli military confiscated any-and-all recording devices they could find doesn't help.
| The new information about the manner and intensity of the killings undermines Israel's insistence that its soldiers opened fire only in self defense and in response to attacks by the activists. |
Close range shots alone, I think, do not undermine the Israeli argument about self defense. |
No, but shots in the back of the head, and in the back, and right between the eyes, says otherwise. In combat situation, your aim isn't that precise. Either they were shooting at people running away, or in at least once instance they took time enough to execute one properly done.
Self defense should not, from my view, be a valid excuse when you're being attacked on a ship you hijacked. It's convoluted either way and it is ridiculous the activists are in the position to have to refute the argument of self defense, but the reality is that this is the position they are forced into.
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I agree, and the Israeli government has to answer for that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 07:49:31 [Permalink]
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Well, for the hell of it, you can see what the Prophecy people are saying about all this.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
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> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/06/2010 : 08:51:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Kil
Are you really that naive about the intentions of the flotilla?
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Blaming the victim. The girl wasn't a goody two shoes. She was raped because she wore a mini skirt.
I'm getting insulted by your insults about naïveté and thinking in black and white, but that doesn't change the fact that you're saying that someone can "provoke" a crime. You're blaming the victim.
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I give up...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 09:17:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Originally posted by Gorgo
Originally posted by Kil
Are you really that naive about the intentions of the flotilla?
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Blaming the victim. The girl wasn't a goody two shoes. She was raped because she wore a mini skirt.
I'm getting insulted by your insults about naïveté and thinking in black and white, but that doesn't change the fact that you're saying that someone can "provoke" a crime. You're blaming the victim.
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I give up...
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Kil, you should have learned this lesson with Gorgo long ago. He is incapable, literally, of seeing outside his box.
You can't explain to him that the blockade runners were attempting to provoke a response. He can't comprehend it. He sees one phrase in your paragraph of sentences and goes all creationist crazy with the out of context partial quote mining.
It's been said by just about everyone participating in this thread, yourself included, that Israel is badly in the wrong here. They over reacted and have committed a crime.
But Gorgo can't comprehend that they were intentionally provoked. He thinks that somehow a ship that announces it's intention to challenge a military blockade in the international media, then goes ahead and does it, is the same thing as a girl in a short skirt getting raped.
You can't reason with him, just like you can't reason with the hyper-religious, and for the same basic reasons.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 09:21:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Gorgo
Blaming the victim. The girl wasn't a goody two shoes. She was raped because she wore a mini skirt. |
That's not even remotely analogous. The people on the ship announced their intentions to run the blockade (which they knew might result in violence), and were arming themselves hours before they were boarded. They picked a fight, and got one. The reason that they are victims is that they brought knives and pipes to a gunfight.| ...that doesn't change the fact that you're saying that someone can "provoke" a crime. |
Yes, someone can. It happens all the time in bars and schoolyards around the world, each and every day.| You're blaming the victim. |
Which doesn't absolve the criminal from responsibility for the crime, but it does mean that the victim was either a dumbass or taking a calculated risk. With regard to these particular victims, they intended to cause a confrontation, and were obviously well aware of what they were getting into. It seems that the only thing they neglected was the possibility that the Israelis would use lethal force. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2010 : 09:40:05 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It seems that the only thing they neglected was the possibility that the Israelis would use lethal force.
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Something you're ignoring is that the Israelis had no need to board the ship. It's not analogous to a bar fight. None of the protestors were boarding Israeli ships or firing on Israeli ships. the Israelis were firing on the protestors ship. The protestors were far away from israel. The crew of the ship was trying to move AWAY from the Israelis. It was one criminal act after another, and you're excusing those criminal acts by saying the protestors provoked them.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Israeli blockade incident
