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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 06/17/2010 : 13:58:50
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Holy criminy! The place is all abuzz today because of the young fella with the power balance bracelet.
I have been in a debate with another guy about magnetic therapy. He is all for it and has a million anecdotes to support his claim. I'm trying to research here and found this article. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041217104054.htm
Help me decipher this....it sounds like nonsense to me.
Researchers from the Peninsula Medical School recruited 194 patients aged 45-80 years with osteoarthritis of the hip or knee from five rural general practices in Devon. Patients wore either a standard strength magnetic bracelet, a weak magnetic bracelet, or a non-magnetic (dummy) bracelet for 12 weeks. Changes in pain were recorded using a recognised pain scoring scale.
They found a significant reduction in pain scores between the standard and dummy magnet groups. The results for the weak magnet group were similar to those of the dummy magnets, and this suggests that the magnetic strength of the bracelet is important.
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Am I just really dumb and can't comprehend what this is saying or is it the nonsense that I think it is?
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 15:06:56 [Permalink]
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What the study showed was that there was a significant drop in pain scores when comparing people using "strongly magnetic" bracelets vs people wearing non-magnetic bracelets. I.e. people using strongly magnetic bracelets felt less pain (after 12 weeks) than did those who were issued non-magnetic bracelets.
To me, it seems like they did a crap job when contolling for the placebo effect. People got magnetic bracelets or, for the control group, metal washers. It sure looks like the control group knew they were the control group. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 15:09:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Holy criminy! The place is all abuzz today because of the young fella with the power balance bracelet.
I have been in a debate with another guy about magnetic therapy. He is all for it and has a million anecdotes to support his claim. I'm trying to research here and found this article. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041217104054.htm
Help me decipher this....it sounds like nonsense to me.
Researchers from the Peninsula Medical School recruited 194 patients aged 45-80 years with osteoarthritis of the hip or knee from five rural general practices in Devon. Patients wore either a standard strength magnetic bracelet, a weak magnetic bracelet, or a non-magnetic (dummy) bracelet for 12 weeks. Changes in pain were recorded using a recognised pain scoring scale.
They found a significant reduction in pain scores between the standard and dummy magnet groups. The results for the weak magnet group were similar to those of the dummy magnets, and this suggests that the magnetic strength of the bracelet is important.
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Am I just really dumb and can't comprehend what this is saying or is it the nonsense that I think it is?
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Well, they do crawfish a bit.
The authors emphasise that the benefits are in addition to existing treatments, which should not be suddenly stopped without discussion with their doctor. Also they note that high strength magnets (170mTesla or more) seem to be needed.
Although factors such as use of painkillers and patients' beliefs about the type of bracelet they were testing did not affect the results, the authors cannot be certain whether their findings are due to a specific effect of magnets or a placebo effect. But, whatever the mechanism, the benefit from magnetic bracelets seems clinically useful.
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This testing is in no way conclusive. It needs to be replicated more times with different groups of subjects to get some sort of a handle on the actual results.
Also, I might remind that ScienceDaily is not a science journal, but a sort of a news magazine. The peer reviewed jornals wouldn't touch this with a stick.
I too, think it's a load.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 15:48:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
Also, I might remind that ScienceDaily is not a science journal, but a sort of a news magazine. The peer reviewed jornals wouldn't touch this with a stick.
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The study was originally posted in the BMJ. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 16:50:22 [Permalink]
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I agree that the study is flawed. It would be easy and an extremely attractive temptation for anyone given one of these to test its magnetism by holding a magnetically permeable bit of metal nearby.
I suspect most of those given a powerful magnet, a weak magnet, or a dummy magnet would know what they had within a couple of days, even if the various versions were all made to look alike. In fact, I can't imagine how one could design this experiment to be truly blind. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 16:57:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Holy criminy! The place is all abuzz today because of the young fella with the power balance bracelet.
I have been in a debate with another guy about magnetic therapy. He is all for it and has a million anecdotes to support his claim. I'm trying to research here and found this article. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041217104054.htm
Help me decipher this....it sounds like nonsense to me.
Researchers from the Peninsula Medical School recruited 194 patients aged 45-80 years with osteoarthritis of the hip or knee from five rural general practices in Devon. Patients wore either a standard strength magnetic bracelet, a weak magnetic bracelet, or a non-magnetic (dummy) bracelet for 12 weeks. Changes in pain were recorded using a recognised pain scoring scale.
They found a significant reduction in pain scores between the standard and dummy magnet groups. The results for the weak magnet group were similar to those of the dummy magnets, and this suggests that the magnetic strength of the bracelet is important.
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Am I just really dumb and can't comprehend what this is saying or is it the nonsense that I think it is?
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Okay, here's the deal. At the bottom of the article they quote the researchers as saying:
"Further work is also needed to replicate these findings and determine whether the effect extends beyond 12 weeks.."
If your friend is arguing that products on the market are effective for relieving pain, beyond a placebo effect, that claim is probably wrong and most certainly unsubstantiated. Anecdotal evidence doesn't really mean anything. If it did, there would be no need for studies. All of the anecdotal evidence in the world can't rule out a placebo effect. Millions of people believe homeopathics work. The problem is homeopathic has never been shown to deliver anything more than a placebo effect in any legitimate study. Plus it's just silly to think that nothing in some water will cure you of anything. But there is no shortage of anecdotes from people who swear that it does work.
Another problem with anecdotes, and no doubt one of the reasons why silly alternatives like homeopathics and magnets seem to work for some people is that pain and illness most often runs its course. If you have chosen to self medicate, and you get better, as about 80% of the people who get sick do without any medical intervention at all, you will likely credit the crap you bought for making you better. Never mind that you would have gotten better anyhow...
Now, what would be interesting is if there were a follow up study done and the results were positive for pain relief beyond a placebo effect. Since the study in question was done in 2004, and we haven't heard anything since, I rather doubt that the study was replicated. I looked by doing a google search and a search on the BMJ site. No supporting studies. None. All in all, I'd say your friend has nothing but his belief and only a single small study that has so far not convinced anyone but true believers in the efficacy of magnetic bracelets.
Another thing to remember is that your friend is the one making the claim. So it's up to him to support the claim. And since anecdotal evidence doesn't really count, he needs to come up with something better.
See: Magnet Therapy: A Skeptical View
Have fun...
Edited to add:
Magnet therapy
| Effects of magnet therapy on pain relief beyond non-specific placebo response have not been adequately demonstrated. A 2008 systematic review of magnet therapy for all indications found no evidence of an effect for pain relief, with the possible exception of osteoarthritis. It reported that small sample sizes, inadequate randomization, and difficulty with allocation concealment all tend to bias studies positively and limit the strength of any conclusions.[10] In 2009 the results of a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled crossover trial on the use of magnetic wrist straps (a leather strap with a magnetic insert) for osteoarthritis were published, addressing a gap in the earlier systematic review. This trial showed that magnetic wrist straps are ineffective in the management of pain, stiffness and physical function in osteoarthritis. The authors concluded that "[r]eported benefits are most likely attributable to non-specific placebo effects". |
Also see: Magnetic Therapy from the Skeptic Dictionary. This is a very good article that mentions the study.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 20:55:54 [Permalink]
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Well said, Kil. Traumatic osteoarthritis is my major health problem and if I thought magnets would bring even temporary relief, I'd be covered with them.
Well, not really covered, but you get my drift.
This magnet cure-all has been around for some decades and has been debunked many times. there have been shoes (Florsheim, if you must know) with magnets reputed to give great benefit to the wearers feet and Q-Ray is still happily ripping off the gullible.
Now there might be some credibility to this study -- given the environment, anything is possible, but they will have to show me a lot more than they have thus far.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2010 : 22:08:43 [Permalink]
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It's bunk! Bullshit  . The only " body’s natural energy flow" I can think they're referring to is YOUR natural green energy, flowing from your wallet, to theirs. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2010 : 04:05:28 [Permalink]
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ss has nailed it. Anytime I see the word "natural" used in an advertisement, my bullshit detector wakes up and puts the coffee on. Everybody wants "natural," as it implies the proper order of things as directed by God, Dog and Mother Nature. Few realize that God is hanging out at the Heavenly Bus Station trying to pick up runaways, Dog is asleep under the porch, and Mother Nature can be and often is, a truly vicious bitch.
But, as in all human endeavors, someone will profit from this. I'm sure the Q-Ray flim-flammers and the rest of the ilk are ecstatic over the study. They can wave it about like a teabagger's sign and cry, "See, science has proved that it works!" And the sign's blatant mispellings will be ignored by the homeopathic, New Age bumpkins. Per usual. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2010 : 10:25:32 [Permalink]
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Another problem with this kind of test is that you can't accurately gauge pain. In medicine things like levels of antibodies, blood sugar or cancer remission can all be measured, but things like stress and pain which a lot of natural remedies claim to reduce, are a lot harder to measure quantitatively, so you can only go off testimonies.
Maybe stress and pain can be measured with some kind of brain scan but that would be a lot more difficult, for various reasons. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 06/19/2010 10:26:46 |
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Bob Lloyd
Skeptic Friend
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 04:20:02 [Permalink]
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There's a good summary article here: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/magnet_therapy_a_billion-dollar_boondoggle/
The critical scientific part is that static magnets cannot affect biological tissue and that even to effect minor peturbations in the protons in the water molecules in the body, to generate enough of a signal to produce an image in magnetic imaging, requires a massive powerful magnet. So putting a magnet on your wrist is going to do just about absolutely nothing.
One of the funniest claims I've seen is that magnet therapy increases circulation because blood contains iron. Two problems immediately come to mind about this suggestion. Firstly, if blood was magnetic (and in fact it isn't), holding a magnet would tend to produce a bruise because the iron would draw the blood towards the magnetic source. Secondly, such a process wouldn't increase circulation but reduce it as the blood was localised and pooled in the place of maximum magnetic field.
One other common pretend explanation is that it works on the quantum level. Unfortunately, at the quantum level the effects on tissue are undetectable and are in any case too small to make any macro level impact. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 08:03:47 [Permalink]
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Bob Lloyd:
One of the funniest claims I've seen is that magnet therapy increases circulation because blood contains iron. Two problems immediately come to mind about this suggestion. Firstly, if blood was magnetic (and in fact it isn't), holding a magnet would tend to produce a bruise because the iron would draw the blood towards the magnetic source. Secondly, such a process wouldn't increase circulation but reduce it as the blood was localised and pooled in the place of maximum magnetic field. |
I pointed out this problem a while back. Perhaps it's in one of my "Evil Skeptic" Kil reports. It happened at one of the booths at a Mind Body Spirit Expo or some such expo that I have attended many of. (Always a good thing to check in on the latest curatives coming out of "New Age Science.") I was told that the iron in the blood would be attracted by the magnet bringing fresh blood to the area in need. I asked if the iron in the blood were attracted to the magnet, why would it not pool around that area soon depleting it's freshness, and become an obstacle to fresh blood flow where the magnet is placed? I'm pretty sure I received a blank stare in reply and then something dismissive like "well that's not how it works in our bodies" as though what I just brought up only demonstrated of my ignorance.
If I recall, he was demonstrating a magnetic cap made from rubber or latex or something, that was filled with magnets. Perhaps it was a cure for headaches or who knows? But it became one of those "get away kid--you bother me" moments. That happens a lot when I start asking questions to the purveyors of nonsense at these expos, about how their product is supposed to work. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 08:45:08 [Permalink]
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Bob Lloyd, thanks for the link.
So fellas, what do we do when our loved ones buy into this crap? I'm sure I have posted about how my Father In law swears by the magnetic bracelet he wears. In fact just last weekend he was saying (again) how great he feels because of it.
Do we leave them alone and be a fool or do we give them the information needed to make a rational judgement?
The problem is that I think he would be upset with me for doubting the power of the bracelet.
I am not sure how to use my skepticism for good! It's hard to do good when everyone is mad at you. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 10:13:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bob Lloyd
One of the funniest claims I've seen is that magnet therapy increases circulation because blood contains iron. Two problems immediately come to mind about this suggestion. Firstly, if blood was magnetic (and in fact it isn't), holding a magnet would tend to produce a bruise because the iron would draw the blood towards the magnetic source. |
The first thing I always think of in response to that claim is that people getting MRIs would explode if their blood were magnetic. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2010 : 13:04:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Bob Lloyd, thanks for the link.
So fellas, what do we do when our loved ones buy into this crap? I'm sure I have posted about how my Father In law swears by the magnetic bracelet he wears. In fact just last weekend he was saying (again) how great he feels because of it.
Do we leave them alone and be a fool or do we give them the information needed to make a rational judgement?
The problem is that I think he would be upset with me for doubting the power of the bracelet.
I am not sure how to use my skepticism for good! It's hard to do good when everyone is mad at you.
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Use your own judgment. I usually say something, which is pretty much all that you can do. I offer studies or information for them to read if they are at all interested in why I doubt what they are doing actually works. I have yet to convince my brother of the silliness of any of the bullshit he buys into.
Yours is a frustration that many skeptics have. But here's the thing. You can count yourself as one of those who don't buy into the bullshit. And you can do what you can to educate people. You can also get evolved in groups that are promoting critical thinking and become active through them. Or you can start one. Join the CFI or the JREF. That money is used to educate and research bogus claims and products. Keep posting here. Really, there are a lot of things you can do. Remember though that it's an uphill battle. Even if you can't get a family member to accept what you are saying, perhaps you can bring friends over who didn't really care before you introduced them to another way of looking at things. I dunno. Seems to me that every skeptic makes a difference... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Magnetic Therapy
