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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 07/16/2010 : 06:31:09
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A friend and I were discussing religion and the topic turned to salvation. She was trying to convince me that the only path to heaven was through Jesus and that we had better be good on this Earth so that we could get to heaven. I asked her " Do you beleive that even criminals can be saved if they ask for forgiveness?". She replied " Well of course I do" I then asked " So what's to keep a person from doing whatever they want as long as they ask for forgiveness some time before they die?". She replied " It just doesn't work that way".
Sure it does. Loopholes.
Thoughts?
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 07:11:54 [Permalink]
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| I would research several other "paths to Heaven" and present them as fact mirrioring her behavior. Unless you want to hook up with her, in which case you should nod and disagree mildly. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2010 : 07:48:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
A friend and I were discussing religion and the topic turned to salvation. She was trying to convince me that the only path to heaven was through Jesus and that we had better be good on this Earth so that we could get to heaven. I asked her " Do you beleive that even criminals can be saved if they ask for forgiveness?". She replied " Well of course I do" I then asked " So what's to keep a person from doing whatever they want as long as they ask for forgiveness some time before they die?". She replied " It just doesn't work that way".
Sure it does. Loopholes.
Thoughts?
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From what I understand, you really have to FEEL sorry and not merely say that you are.
I think that a better way to dismantle her claim that "the only path to heaven was through Jesus" is to realise that she is essentially doing Pascal's wager on you. Do what BigPapaSMurf suggests or why not even claim that even if there is a God (and you'll be giving her a lot for the sake of argument right there), there might not be an afterlife.
Or have her read about Pascal's wager, I suppose... |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 20:43:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
and that we had better be good on this Earth so that we could get to heaven. |
This is impossible and not christianity. Doing good on earth cannot get you to heaven.
I asked her " Do you beleive that even criminals can be saved if they ask for forgiveness?". She replied " Well of course I do" I then asked " So keep a person from doing whatever they want as long as they ask for forgiveness some time before they die?". She replied " It just doesn't work that way".
Sure it does. Loopholes. |
You cannot be saved if you do not believe. Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 21:52:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
This is impossible and not christianity. Doing good on earth cannot get you to heaven. |
That's true for some Christian sects, but not others. Some believe that you not only need to have faith, but to "do good works" as well. They quote Scripture, too, so who's to say who's right?| You cannot be saved if you do not believe. Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously. |
What does Jesus say about one's actions after repenting and believing? If "getting saved" once is good enough for salvation, then what's to stop a Christian from repenting, believing, and then sinning as often as he wants prior to his death? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2010 : 22:03:35 [Permalink]
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Robb:
You cannot be saved if you do not believe. Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously. |
But really. The main thing to repent for is not believing. Since we are all sinners and we all sin, believing tops the list, right? So no matter how good you are, no mater how much good you have done in your life, you get to burn forever if the brains God supposedly gave to you get the way of accepting him on faith. You MUST suspend logic. The faith thing is an example, I think, of how cruel your version of a "loving" God is. It seems to me that it would take a whole lot of rationalizing to turn such an ego driven God into something other than a monster.
You can say that I don't understand. And you would be correct. I lack the capacity to understand the reasoning behind what counts for a righteous person in Christianity. But then, demanding faith, or else, isn't exactly a call to reason... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 02:26:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
and that we had better be good on this Earth so that we could get to heaven. |
This is impossible and not christianity. Doing good on earth cannot get you to heaven.
I asked her " Do you beleive that even criminals can be saved if they ask for forgiveness?". She replied " Well of course I do" I then asked " So keep a person from doing whatever they want as long as they ask for forgiveness some time before they die?". She replied " It just doesn't work that way".
Sure it does. Loopholes. |
You cannot be saved if you do not believe. Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously. |
This "faith" requirement of Christianity is simply a command to be irrational in regard to the religion's precepts. Accept what you're told, and shut up.
Pretty clever religion. Force your followers (through fear of eternal torture) to eschew critical thinking, and then praise that irrationality -- faith -- as though it were a virtue. Christianity's promotion of faith is like a casino's promotion of "luck," and is done for essentially the same reasons. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 08:22:36 [Permalink]
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| What Jesus said and what is practiced. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 08:46:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Repent and beleive is what Jesus said and it does not matter what you did previously. |
Ok, Robb, honest question. Do you know where in the bible it says you have to believe in Jesus before you die to be saved? Why is death the cut-off point? What's the biblical support for that rule? I'm curious and would appreciate any insight you could offer on that point.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 12:47:40 [Permalink]
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I have been thinking about this topic in relation to the Son of Sam post. David Berkowitz was a cold blooded killer. He pre-meditatedly killed six people and seriously injured several more. Although he didn't know his victims, in each case he set out with the goal of committing murder. If I understand the christian mythology correctly, it is claimed that if he really believes and repents, that he can spend eternity in paradise. Meanwhile I, and many like me, who reject the existence of the christian god, and whose transgressions against our fellow man are (compared to Berkowitz') trifling, are destined for, and deserving of an eternity of unimaginable torture. This is an insult to our intelligence and to any reasonable sense of morality. That a just and loving god would have designed and presides over such a system of justice is beyond ludicrous.
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 18:19:43 [Permalink]
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I don't know why it's ludicrous just because it doesn't seem fair to you. I mean seriously, what do people expect? For their own sense of fairness to perfectly coincide with that of an all powerful being? Human beings can't even agree on what is fair, what seems fair to you might seem ridiculous to another person.
Also to all those who disagree that people who honestly repent their crimes should be forgive; do you believe criminals should be permanently ostracised?
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 19:06:19 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I don't know why it's ludicrous just because it doesn't seem fair to you. I mean seriously, what do people expect? For their own sense of fairness to perfectly coincide with that of an all powerful being? Human beings can't even agree on what is fair, what seems fair to you might seem ridiculous to another person.
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The adherents of the christian god have defined it as being just and loving. It must therefore behave in a way that a rational person would recognize as "just and loving". If, as you claim, we were made in his image, then we should expect that we and the deity would agree on a definition. The case where a person like Berkowitz gets an eternity in paradise and a non-believer gets an eternity of torture does not fit with any sane definition of "just and loving". It comes down to rationality. The christian mythology is completely irrational.
If our sense of fairness does not coincide with that of the deity, then we are destined from the outset to fail. I know that that is a core tenet of christianity, but it doesn't fit with the "just and loving" definition that christians claim. It is logically inconsistent, and therefor ludicrous.
Also to all those who disagree that people who honestly repent their crimes should be forgive; do you believe criminals should be permanently ostracised?
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It depends. Berkowitz' actions revealed him to be a cold, calculating killer, with no empathy for fellow human beings (see also Manson, Charles; Speck, Richard; Gein, Ed etc.). That is a biological defect that he has. That type of criminal should be kept away from society due to the danger that he presents. I believe that some people are so damaged that they are not actually able to honestly repent their crimes. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 19:10:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I don't know why it's ludicrous just because it doesn't seem fair to you. |
It's because terms like "just" and "loving" have meanings. To include things that clearly are not "just" or "loving" is to twist the words into meaninglessness.| I mean seriously, what do people expect? For their own sense of fairness to perfectly coincide with that of an all powerful being? |
I would accept logical or scientific reasons why my sense of fairness is wrong. What are they?| Human beings can't even agree on what is fair, what seems fair to you might seem ridiculous to another person. |
And the Christian God seems like a vindictive bully with control issues (to say the least) who isn't worthy of worship. So why do you?| Also to all those who disagree that people who honestly repent their crimes should be forgive; do you believe criminals should be permanently ostracised? |
Ironic you should ask that, when at the moment of death, God will permanently ostracize anyone who hasn't yet repented. Why not? What's special about death to an infinite being? Why won't anyone get a second chance, for all eternity? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 19:28:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
It's because terms like "just" and "loving" have meanings. To include things that clearly are not "just" or "loving" is to twist the words into meaninglessness.
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Define "Just", have concepts of justice not changed completely over time and culture? God is loving, but that isn't to say he isn't capable of non-loving behaviour. It is possible to be multifaceted without being duplicitous.
| I would accept logical or scientific reasons why my sense of fairness is wrong. What are they? |
Ifs fairness a science or is it subjective? Are there any scientific proofs out there for fairness? I'd be interested in reading them. But that is really besides the point.
I think the issue you're failing to grasp is that for a Christian, God is a supreme authority , and what he says goes, he is always right so if you disagree with him, you're wrong. This may sound completely outrageous to you, but it's pretty much a cornerstone for any monotheistic belief, and if you'd put yourself in a theists shoes for 5 seconds it'd become obvious.
So if you don't think it's fair, then tough. God decides what is fair, so you're wrong.
| And the Christian God seems like a vindictive bully with control issues (to say the least) who isn't worthy of worship. So why do you? |
If you believe in God then it makes sense to worship Him. Maybe you're the kind of person who was bullied and are over-sensetive I don't know, but nothing he's done seems particularly vindictive to me or a billion other people.
Ironic you should ask that, when at the moment of death, God will permanent ostracize anyone who hasn't yet repented. Why not? What's special about death to an infinite being? Why won't anyone get a second chance, for all eternity?
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What's so special about death? It's the moment you return to your creator if you have accepted Him. Pretty obviously a major milestone.
And at least the Christian system gives these people a chance while alive. For an atheist to never forgive a criminal is also permanent ostracism, since I assume you believe death is fairly permanent. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 07/18/2010 19:31:49 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 19:37:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
The adherents of the christian god have defined it as being just and loving. It must therefore behave in a way that a rational person would recognize as "just and loving". If, as you claim, we were made in his image, then we should expect that we and the deity would agree on a definition. The case where a person like Berkowitz gets an eternity in paradise and a non-believer gets an eternity of torture does not fit with any sane definition of "just and loving". It comes down to rationality. The christian mythology is completely irrational.
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Depends on your interpretation of "image". Even if taken literally (as atheists love to do) you're wrong here. Also since millions of christians do think God is fair and just then it would suggest many people do think this way.
It depends. Berkowitz' actions revealed him to be a cold, calculating killer, with no empathy for fellow human beings (see also Manson, Charles; Speck, Richard; Gein, Ed etc.). That is a biological defect that he has. That type of criminal should be kept away from society due to the danger that he presents. I believe that some people are so damaged that they are not actually able to honestly repent their crimes.
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I disagree, many psychopaths/sociopaths are able to participate in society, and a set of rules laid out by a divine creator, and a firm belief in that creator may be the ONLY way to control such people. |
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| Edited by - On fire for Christ on 07/18/2010 19:38:35 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2010 : 20:18:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Define "Just", have concepts of justice not changed completely over time and culture? |
Allegedly, God doesn't change. So it must still be "just" to stone to death one's rebellious and drunken son.| God is loving, but that isn't to say he isn't capable of non-loving behaviour. It is possible to be multifaceted without being duplicitous. |
It's not possible to be all-loving while engaging in non-loving behavior.| I would accept logical or scientific reasons why my sense of fairness is wrong. What are they? |
Ifs fairness a science or is it subjective? Are there any scientific proofs out there for fairness? I'd be interested in reading them. But that is really besides the point. |
Yes, it is. So are your very poorly worded questions. But the science of fairness is coming along quite well without your input, so what's it matter?I think the issue you're failing to grasp is that for a Christian, God is a supreme authority , and what he says goes, he is always right so if you disagree with him, you're wrong. This may sound completely outrageous to you, but it's pretty much a cornerstone for any monotheistic belief, and if you'd put yourself in a theists shoes for 5 seconds it'd become obvious.
So if you don't think it's fair, then tough. God decides what is fair, so you're wrong. |
I'm sorry to hear that people with monotheistic beliefs aren't allowed to think for themselves at all. Gives the lie to that whole "free will" thing, doesn't it?| If you believe in God then it makes sense to worship Him. |
How convenient for you, that you don't need to explain why it "makes sense."| Maybe you're the kind of person who was bullied and are over-sensetive I don't know, but nothing he's done seems particularly vindictive to me or a billion other people. |
Actually, I think you've all got "beaten spouse" syndrome, and have such poor self-esteem that you think you deserve to be treated like crap by your God. Here's my biggest problem with God: he invented evil, made people capable of sin, and then punishes people for all eternity if they don't beg his forgiveness for that which he created. And people like you think that his forgiveness is some sort of favor he's granting you, when in reality, he set you up to fail. Nothing that any human did is deserving of eternal punishment. Not even the horrible things your God has people doing (if we accept the Bible as accurate history). But God set up humanity as a whole to fail with that "Tree of Knowledge" stupidity, and punishes every human for all time because of that "mistake" (toiling in the fields, pain of childbirth). No second chances for that, either: we have to endure those punishments, because a couple of people walked unknowing into God's first entrapment.
These things are "just" and "loving" in your opinion? Of course they are: the same God who committed these crimes says that they are, and you're willing to believe him.| What's so special about death? It's the moment you return to your creator if you have accepted Him. |
Why? Why not after two or four or seventeen lives? Why return to your creator at all?| Pretty obviously a major milestone. |
Pretty obviously just something that was made up.| And at least the Christian system gives these people a chance while alive. |
Yes, they get one chance. And if they screw it up, the punishment is permanent. Thus the irony of you asking about second chances. Your God gives no second chances, yet you think that non-believers should give second chances to other people? Why?| For an atheist to never forgive a criminal is also permanent ostracism, since I assume you believe death is fairly permanent. |
Who says that any atheist is in favor of the death penalty, or of not forgiving criminals? I'm not. I'm all for forgiveness. I'm even opposed to "three strikes" laws.
And what I'm definitely not in favor of is permanent forgiveness. If a criminal who has served his time re-offends, he should go back into the clink. Not so, it seems, with God. Once saved, always saved. What's to stop a person from repenting and being saved at age 23, and then start a life of thieving, murder and hedonism at age 30? Does his salvation just vanish? Let's see some actual Biblical references to back up your answers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Loopholes
