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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2010 : 20:19:19 [Permalink]
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[i]Originally posted by Bongorider
Dude, I see what you are getting at, there is an argument that humans aren't above or beyond anything else and merely another variation. But the overwhelming perception is that we are. I can see a case for arguing that humans aren't unique as an alternative to WHY we are unique. But for me, the latter is the more convincing.
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Unless you have some objective standard for comparison, then you are just making stuff up. It's bad thinking.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Bongorider
New Member
Cuba
7 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 21:59:34 [Permalink]
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| My other thought was that if you think you're the pinnacle of evolution, try a cage match with a pissed-off grizzly bear. |
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Yes and who built the cage? Anyway this just comes back to Man overcoming his physical limitations. I don't think having claws and being strong necessarily makes you stand out in the same way as quantum physics. Since you are born with those things and their use is instinctive. If a bear kills a man, then is shot by a park ranger for being dangerous, it's superior in a 1 on 1 situation with the man in the short term, but it's not going to survive in the long term. The bear has absolutely no understanding of why it is shot and neither would any other animal. Mr Twain may consider us conceited. But we are the only animal which to our knowledge has had the ability to be conceited, and then contemplate our own conceit, write about it, and have people consider our musings years after our death.
Dude, I'm deliberately being vague because I actually want this kind of input. I realize that objective standards are necessary for comparison, but I doubt I would ever use this argument because despite it being logical I'm not sure if it would be effective. Also I suspect that an objective comparison could be made to show that man is superior and/or unique, what do you think? I'm guessing you could start by comparing the complexity of the structure of societies, the use of tools, the ability to retain information and solve problems, self awareness, instinct vs thought. These kinds of things are indicative of overall intelligence and are the kinds of tests we apply to animals to judge their intelligence. I might see if there is any literature on this and come back to you.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 23:05:58 [Permalink]
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Yes, our intellect is unique and does set humans apart from most of the animal kingdom. I would argue that of all the survival strategies employed by evolution (motility, speed, armor, flight, fangs, etc...), intelligence offers the greatest payoff. It's a high cost investment, but if a species can achieve a certain threshold of intelligence, near total control of it's environment becomes possible. That's a huge survival advantage and would definitely be selected for.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 23:11:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Yes, our intellect is unique and does set humans apart from most of the animal kingdom. I would argue that of all the survival strategies employed by evolution (motility, speed, armor, flight, fangs, etc...), intelligence offers the greatest payoff. It's a high cost investment, but if a species can achieve a certain threshold of intelligence, near total control of it's environment becomes possible. That's a huge survival advantage and would definitely be selected for.
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And we just happened to be the species to go there first.
All the magical thinking that requires some form of outside intervention for us to get there first can be summarized as little more than pulling shit out of your ass. Intelligence, as H.H. says, imparts a very significant survival advantage.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 05:29:53 [Permalink]
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Bacteria win, the only organism which could survive an impact with a 1/6 Earth mass object. Without them we would be dead and about 50% lighter, they outnumber our normal cells 10-1. If you took all the bacteria in the world it would make a film 10 meters thick across the planet.
For humans to be the pinnicale, you have to skew the requirements. The fact is we are not likely to outlive an average species even with our knowledge and abilities, which I could argue means that we are inferior in more ways than one.. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 08:28:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
Bacteria win, the only organism which could survive an impact with a 1/6 Earth mass object. Without them we would be dead and about 50% lighter, they outnumber our normal cells 10-1. If you took all the bacteria in the world it would make a film 10 meters thick across the planet.
For humans to be the pinnicale, you have to skew the requirements. The fact is we are not likely to outlive an average species even with our knowledge and abilities, which I could argue means that we are inferior in more ways than one..
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Yeah. Bacteria completely dominate the food chain. They own the top, bottom, and every link between.
And as BPS says; without the symbiosis between humans and several different species of bacteria we'd not be capable of surviving in our environment.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 09:32:24 [Permalink]
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| He's a theist. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 11:52:41 [Permalink]
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| We are certainly unique but not uniquely so. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 12:03:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
We are certainly unique but not uniquely so.
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Reminds me of some wisdom I once heard: " Remember, you are unique....just like everyone else" |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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jakesteele
New Member
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2010 : 23:57:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bongorider
The big questions that men pose and religion "answers" seem to revolve around Afterlife and Creation. I feel that people get hung up on these questions and forget to ask or answer the more interesting ones.
For me afterlife is a cut and dry topic. Absence of proof suggests absence of afterlife.
Creation is a little more esoteric, no one knows for sure how the universe was created, we can speculate, but I don't think that is even necessary. We simply remove the question, why postulate that a supreme being created the universe as that poses the further question of who created the supreme being? If a God can be eternal or come into existence from nothing, then why can't the universe. The question remains unanswered but it is shown that God is not a necessity and actually complicates the issue.
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Militant Agnostic bumper sticker:
I DON'T KNOW AND NEITHER DO YOU. |
Sacred Cows make the tastiest hamburgers |
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The biggest question?
