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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 07/28/2010 : 17:19:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Originally posted by tomk80
She isn't required to change her beliefs. She is required to shut up about them.
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| The student, Jennifer Keeton, 24, has been pursuing a master's degree in school counseling at Augusta State University since 2009, but school officials have informed her that she'll be dismissed from the program unless she alters her "central religious beliefs on human nature and conduct," |
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This is what she claims in her law suit. What, precisely, is she actually required to do?
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 17:28:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
| Yeah, I get a strong "Ann Coulter" vibe from her photo. |
I must be a glutton for punishment because I think Ann Coulter is hot too.
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I'm assuming that's the gayest thing you've ever said.
What about her do you like? Her massive Adam's apple? Her three foot long fingers? Her male jaw? Her flat chest? Her large penis?
She's absolutely hideous (Granted a big portion of that is due to the lying filth she spews out of her man-jaw). |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
| Edited by - astropin on 07/28/2010 17:30:12 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 17:29:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hawks
This is what she claims in her law suit. What, precisely, is she actually required to do? |
Right, she claims that the school is making her alter her beliefs, when in fact they just require her to keep her beliefs to herself while acting in an official capacity.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 17:32:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
A bonus is that there would be no homosexuality involved in her conversion.
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Why does that constitute a bonus? |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 17:37:52 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Yeah, I get a strong "Ann Coulter" vibe from her photo.
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Not Anne Coulter mah?  |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 17:49:58 [Permalink]
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| I guess we need to find out what the Universities position really is. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 18:04:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I guess we need to find out what the Universities position really is.
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CNN has the story with video. In a statement to CNN, Augusta State said it "does not discriminate against any individuals on the basis of their personal, social, political, or religious beliefs or views. No student is asked to change their religious beliefs or views in order to participate in any program."
Without commenting specifically on the Keeton suit, the university also said, "The professional counselor's job is to help clients clarify their current feelings and behaviors and to help them reach the goals that they have determined for themselves, not to dictate what those goals should be, what morals they should possess, or what values they should adopt." |
Keeton is being represented in her lawsuit by the Alliance Defense Fund which Wikipedia describes as "a conservative Christian nonprofit organization with the stated goal of 'defending the right to hear and speak the Truth through strategy, training, funding, and litigation.'"
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/28/2010 18:05:45 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 19:28:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Right, she claims that the school is making her alter her beliefs, when in fact they just require her to keep her beliefs to herself while acting in an official capacity. |
Since many Christians believe that God requires them to proselytize, requiring her to keep her beliefs to herself (ever) may be the same (to her) as requiring her to change her beliefs. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 19:48:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Since many Christians believe that God requires them to proselytize, requiring her to keep her beliefs to herself (ever) may be the same (to her) as requiring her to change her beliefs.
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Oh, I'm certain she feels that way. Unfortunately for her, she doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. Employers need only accommodate "reasonable" religious concerns of their employees, like having a certain holiday off of scheduling breaks for private prayer. Allowing an employee to preach to your clients doesn't qualify. Plus, this is a state university, so I imagine school counselors would be considered government employees. She has no more of a free speech right to proselytize than a local school teacher.
This whole lawsuit is ridiculous anyway. All she had to do was attend a pro-gay seminar she didn't agree with, get her degree and take a job at some private fundy school where she could legally discriminate until retirement. But her sense of self-righteousness wouldn't allow such compromise. Ok. Roll the dice in court. I have a feeling she's going to be tossed out on her ear.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 22:21:09 [Permalink]
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Via John Pieret's Thoughts in a Haystack (a very good blog I often find myself reading):
The plaintiff is being represented by the Alliance Defense Fund, self-described as "a legal alliance defending the right to hear and speak the Truth." The text of the Complaint can be found at the ADF's website. Perhaps the heart of the lawsuit is this:
57. Miss Keeton gave consideration to her options in the days following the May 27, 2010 meeting. She did not want to be subject to the terms of the second portion of the remediation plan, which required her to be subject to a sustained program of proselytizing that was overtly hostile to her Christian convictions, which no other student was required to endure in order to remain in good standing in the program.
Strangely (or maybe not so), the ADF does not include Exhibit B, the actual remediation plan Keeton was required to adhere to. Here are the relevant parts:
Another equally important question that has arisen over the last two semesters is Jen's ability to be a multiculturally competent counselor, particularly with regard to working with gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and queer/questioning (GLBTQ) populations. Jen has voiced disagreement in several class discussions and in written assignments with the gay and lesbian "lifestyle." She stated in one paper that she believes GLBTQ "lifestyles" to be identity confusion. This was during her enrollment in the Diversity Sensitivity course and after the presentation on GLBTQ populations. Faculty have also received unsolicited reports from another student that she has relayed her interest in conversion therapy for GLBTQ populations, and she has tried to convince other students to support and believe her views.
There are three major issues of concern with these statements and behaviors. First, these statements and actions are in direct conflict with the codes of ethics to which counselors and counselors-in-training are required to adhere. Section C.5, of the American Counseling Association (ACA) Code of Ethics (2005) clearly states that counselors "do not condone or engage in discrimination based on age, culture, disability, ethnicity, race, religion/spirituality, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, marital status/partnership, language preference, socioeconomic status, or any basis proscribed by law" (p. 10).
Part of the Preamble of the American School Counselor Association (ASCA) Ethical Standards (2004) states:
Each person has the right to be respected, be treated with dignity and have access to a comprehensive school counseling program that advocates for and affirms all students from diverse populations regardless of ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, English as a second language or other language group, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, retigious/spiritual identity and appearance. (p. l)
The ASCA Etnical Standards further state in section E. 2 that the professional school counselor:
a. Affirms the diversity of students, staff and families.
b. Expands and develops awareness of his/her own attitudes and beliefs affecting cultural values and biases and strives to attain cultural competence.
c. Possesses knowledge and understanding about how oppression, racism, discrimination and stereotyping affects her/him personally and professionally.
d. Acquires educational, consultation and training experiences to improve awareness, knowledge, skills and effectiveness in working with diverse populations: ethnic/racial status, age, economic status, special needs, ESL or ELL, immigration status, sexual orientation, gender, gender identity/expression, family type, religious/spiritual identity and appearance. (p.4)
These codes dictate the necessity for counselors to possess an awareness of personal biases, a desire to gain knowledge of multicultural populations, as well as the ability to remain respectful, affirming, and most importantly, responsive to the needs of minority populations. This is especially important for school counselors, which Jen aspires to be, as they are responsible for assisting in the development of an affirming and safe school environment for all students in schools.
Secondly, the psychological research about GLBTQ populations asserts that sexual orientation is not a lifestyle or choice, but a state of being. Most researchers believe that how one becomes gay or lesbian is a complex process influenced by both biological and environmental factors. To work effectively with the population, one must develop an understanding of the history, discrimination, oppression, and current problems that confront GLBTQ people.
Third, research in psychological peer-reviewed journals has also reveals that conversion therapy is ineffective in changing individual's sexual orientation from same-sex attractions to opposite-sex attractiveness. Peer-reviewed studies have actually indicated that conversion therapy may harm clients rather then help them. The American Psychological Association repealed inclusion of homosexuality in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1973, stating that it is not a mental health condition for which people are in need of change.
Given all of the above, and since the ASU counseling program trains counselors to work in public as well as private institutions, faculty question Jen's ability to become an effective practitioner in the counseling field without more deliberate and intentional action to further develop her multicultural counseling awareness, knowledge, and skills specifically towards working with GLBTQ populations. Her lack of awareness of how her beliefs may negatively impact future clients is of great concern. Therefore, the steps below are required.
Summary of Remediation Planning Session:
Faculty met with Jennifer on May 27 to review the problems described above and develop the following remediation plan:
Remediation Plan Outline :
To address issues of writing ...
To address issues of multicultural competence and develop understanding and empathy:
7. Jen will attend at least three workshops prior to the end of the mil 2010 semester which emphasize improving cross-cultural communication, developing multicultural competence, or diversity sensitivity training toward working with GLBTQ populations. She will provide to her advisor evidence in the form of attendance certificates.
8. Jen will continue to develop her knowledge base on GLBTQ issues by outside reading on the topic. She will read at least ten articles in peer-reviewed counseling or psychological journals that pertain to improving counseling effectiveness with GLBTQ populations. There is much research available on the ALGBTTC webpage under Resources.
9. Jen will work to increase exposure and interaction with gay populations. One such activity could be attending the Gay Pride Parade in Augusta. She will report on these interactions in her reflections (below).
10. Jen will familiarize herself with the ALGBTIC Competencies for Counseling Gays and Transgender Clients.
11. Each month - Jen will submit a two-page reflection to her advisor that summarizes what she learned from her research, how her study has influenced her beliefs, and how future clients may benefit from what she has learned.
12. Based on these written reflections and two scheduled meetings with Jen prior to December 2010, faculty will decide the appropriateness of her continuation in the counseling program
Please note that failure to complete all elements of the remediation plan will result in dismissal from the Counselor Education Program. |
Can anyone see where in her remediation plan it is required of her to alter her "central religious beliefs on human nature and conduct"?
As John (a lawyer) says:
In this case, is it proselytizing to insure that Keeton understands "how her beliefs may negatively impact future clients," by knowing, even if not agreeing with, present psychological views of the genesis of gender and sexual identity? Or is it merely fulfilling the object of education? Nothing in Exhibit B requires that she change her views, only that she be aware of the contrary evidence and reflect upon it.
Keeton is claiming that she was threatened with termination from the program if she did not change her religiously held views. If so, she may have a case under the First Amendment. But if the claim is that she should be free from having her religious views challenged by information inconvenient to her beliefs, then she is just demanding to be ignorant ... something that no educational institution needs to concede. |
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 03:22:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
I guess we need to find out what the Universities position really is.
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I think what is said in the brief filed is pretty much damning enough (and that is her brief). The central problem is whether she should change her beliefs or not. According to the brief, her teachers have stated explicately that she does not need to do so. However, she does need to affirm the GLBTQ-population in their actions during counseling sessions. She stated herself that she cannot do that.
Now, from my reading of the brief, the teachers weren't always completely clear on what she needed to do, at least based on her reflection of events. Sometimes her teachers talk about altering her beliefs, but than later clarify. This can be taken two ways, I think, although the nuance is subtle to non-existent:
1. It is her belief that she has to point out to clients of her during sessions, that being gay, lesbian or transgender is a lifestyle choice and is immoral. If that is the case, her beliefs indeed need to be altered for her to function as a counseler.
2. It is her belief that being gay, lesbian or transgender is a lifestyle choice and is immoral. It is not her belief that she needs to point this out to people, when faced with this. In this case, she needs to alter her behavior, not her belief.
And as far as I can see, 1 is the case here. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 03:34:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Well if you go off actual scripture, which you really should since it's right there in black and white. It's really not mentioned very much at all. It states quite clearly in Levicticus that you can't be gay and get into heaven. But most of Levicticus is ignored by Modern day Christians. |
There in lies the rub. Fundies are forever picking and choosing which of their god's words we should have rammed down our throats. The fact that any mildly educated person knows that it's all a bronze age goat-herders yarn is enough to ignore all of it and consign it to the 'Talking a load of bollocks' section of ones life.
When she stops wearing mixed fibres or rallies the townsfolk to stone the neighbour washing his car on a Sunday, then I'll listen. Fuck I hate bigoted fundies.
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I don't know why people think Jesus is loving and kind and therefore loves every human behaviour, he quite clearly states he's not here to abolish the old laws. Which shows he believes in certain standards of human conduct.
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I certainly don't. I think he's a cunt. A viscious, nasty, bully with an astoundingly corrupt moral set. If he wasn't a work of fiction I'd be glad they fuckin' crucified the bastard. |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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welshdean
Skeptic Friend
United Kingdom
172 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 03:49:53 [Permalink]
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She's a minger anyway.
A slack/man-jawed, flat chested fundie bigoted minger.
Ann Coulter on the other hand...
Wow, She's hot! |
"Frazier is so ugly he should donate his face to the US Bureau of Wild Life."
"I am America. I am the part you won't recognize, but get used to me. Black, confident, cocky. My name, not yours. My religion, not yours. My goals, my own. Get used to me."
"Service to others is the rent you pay for your room here on earth."
---- Muhammad Ali
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 09:50:35 [Permalink]
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ebone, OFFC, Dave, welshdean, and all you other andric jaspers out there.....
After seeing a more or less full-length image of La Keeton, I now realize that my initial impression of her condition of molelular excitation was seriously biased by ebone's pornographic prose.
She not only has dead eyes, she's dead, Jim!
Man-jaw and manjina included, she's pure manure!
Ebone, keep your damn sexual evaluations to yourself, you are poisoning the mind of a hopelessly dirty old man! dreckhhh....! (Spit)(hock)(vomit).....
But that glorious image of the ethereal Ann Coulter, she with the measured, reasonable, objective political viewpoint; she with the stunningly beautiful face and utterly feminine persona, and now with a complete body transplant______now, there's a real woman! |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 10:02:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
ebone, OFFC, Dave, welshdean, and all you other andric jaspers out there.....
After seeing a more or less full-length image of La Keeton, I now realize that my initial impression of her condition of molelular excitation was seriously biased by ebone's pornographic prose.
She not only has dead eyes, she's dead, Jim!
Man-jaw and manjina included, she's pure manure!
Ebone, keep your damn sexual evaluations to yourself, you are poisoning the mind of a hopelessly dirty old man! dreckhhh....! (Spit)(hock)(vomit).....
But that glorious image of the ethereal Ann Coulter, she with the measured, reasonable, objective political viewpoint; she with the stunningly beautiful face and utterly feminine persona, and now with a complete body transplant______now, there's a real woman!
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Well I never claimed that my standards were high! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Expelled for being a homophobe?
