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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 09:06:26 [Permalink]
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Dude.....
Would you literally sacrifice your life to assure that the First Amendment to the Constitution not be repealed (the rest of the Bill of Rights would remain intact)? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 09:23:20 [Permalink]
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Dave:
So trying to silence Terry Jones in particular was pointless, of course. |
Well, I dunno. Rightly or wrongly (I'm thinking, wrongly), he was the focus of this whole episode and he backed off of burning the Koran's way back on Thursday. We don't know what would have happened had he actually carried out his mission. We can't come to any conclusions about it with any degree of certainty. We can only know how it went down.
And I still don't get why it's okay for some idiot to protest, but it's not okay to tell the idiot that it's a bad idea and might indeed be terribly irresponsible for him to do so.
We can't actually silence anyone. Nor should we strive to make any exceptions to the Constitution to allow for that. But there is nothing wrong with trying to persuade. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 09/12/2010 : 09:38:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
Would you literally sacrifice your life to assure that the First Amendment to the Constitution not be repealed (the rest of the Bill of Rights would remain intact)?
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No one (pretty much) wants to die for a cause. (There are some rather obvious exceptions in the news these days. I suppose there always have been.) But I have to tell you Bill. After all of the bullshit reasons that we have gone to war for, I also think that protecting speech is one of the few causes actually worth defending and dying for. It's not that I don't care about my life. But I care more about the world my children and grandchildren will be living in...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 09:43:27 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
You must be speaking hyperbolically, or in some sense of a figure of speech!
You do not mean to say that you would literally sacrifice your life, at your current age, in order to preserve the First Amendment, do you? In other words, if you - Dave W. - had to die in order for the First Amendment not to be repealed, although the rest of the Bill of Rights would remain intact, you would choose death!
Do you actually mean that LITERALLY ? |
I really meant it. Maintaining the principles within the First Amendment (and many others) as a basis for our laws is vastly more important than any individual's life, including my own.
Now, realistically, such a thing is ludicrous. I cannot even imagine a scenario in which anyone could be handed such a dilemma and maintain trust that the government would keep their end of the bargain afterward. But you were engaging in ridiculous analogies, so I felt free to engage in ridiculous hypothesizing.
If you'd like to present a realistic scenario in which I'd have to sacrifice something to help ensure the continuation of our civil rights, I'd be happy to consider it. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 09:55:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
Would you literally sacrifice your life to assure that the First Amendment to the Constitution not be repealed (the rest of the Bill of Rights would remain intact)?
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Your question is almost as absurd as your position in this thread.
I would not passively sacrifice myself for any reason. If the first amendment was actually about to be repealed I would take up arms against my government. In doing so there is a better than average chance of death, but that is the kind of "sacrifice" I would make. Preserving the first amendment is worth fighting, and maybe dying, for.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 10:00:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Well, I dunno. Rightly or wrongly (I'm thinking, wrongly), he was the focus of this whole episode and he backed off of burning the Koran's way back on Thursday. We don't know what would have happened had he actually carried out his mission. We can't come to any conclusions about it with any degree of certainty. We can only know how it went down. |
But the international news is talking about the "copycats" who went ahead and burned Korans yesterday. Those people likely would have gone ahead and done so even if Terry Jones hadn't backed down. The protesters in Afghanistan know by now that Korans were burned, even if the number is one fewer than it otherwise would have been.| And I still don't get why it's okay for some idiot to protest, but it's not okay to tell the idiot that it's a bad idea and might indeed be terribly irresponsible for him to do so. |
It's fine for private citizens to say anything they like. It's not okay for anyone in the government to suggest that any sort of expression is "a bad idea," unless it's actually illegal. The government isn't supposed to be in the business of choosing moral paths for us.| We can't actually silence anyone. |
The Gainesville police silenced one man's protest by forcibly taking away his Koran and lighter. Unless they appeal to the "logs and twigs" law, it was a violation of the man's First Amendment rights.| Nor should we strive to make any exceptions to the Constitution to allow for that. But there is nothing wrong with trying to persuade. |
No, there isn't. My argument has been that the reasons for trying to persuade people to avoid burning the Koran are without evidence, and instead based on fear of reprisals which have almost never happened (we know of a single exception). That fear gives power to the terrorists and the wanna-be terrorists, power that they shouldn't be given so easily. Sadly, most of America seems willing to fall to their knees and beg, "please don't hurt us," when there's little evidence that anyone would. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 10:01:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by chefcrsh
So to answer the OP, and with full benefit of hindsight, I can now say unequivocally, that the whole sordid affair, including the guy, the church, the media, the bloggers, the muslims, the governments...it was a startling and nearly global display nearing if not actually summiting the pinnacle of human stupidity. If Aliens are watching, they must have enjoyed this particular episode.
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Yep.
The worst part is that this whole episode will end up reenforcing the "islam/muslim = terrorist" meme. Our media, our government, and our general in Afghanistan all came down on the side of this issue that implies muslims can be incited to acts of terrorism by nothing more than threatening to burn their book.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 10:12:31 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| It's fine for private citizens to say anything they like. It's not okay for anyone in the government to suggest that any sort of expression is "a bad idea," unless it's actually illegal. The government isn't supposed to be in the business of choosing moral paths for us. |
Yeah. The point I was trying to get across to Kil is when people tell other people to shut up, when it is clear they don't have to shut up, it runs counter to the concept of free speech. It is obviously the right of any private citizen to tell anyone else to shut up, it's just hypocritical to use your right of speech to tell another to not use theirs.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 10:31:32 [Permalink]
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Dude:
Yeah. The point I was trying to get across to Kil is when people tell other people to shut up, when it is clear they don't have to shut up, it runs counter to the concept of free speech. It is obviously the right of any private citizen to tell anyone else to shut up, it's just hypocritical to use your right of speech to tell another to not use theirs. |
Sigh...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 10:38:30 [Permalink]
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Dave:
But the international news is talking about the "copycats" who went ahead and burned Korans yesterday. Those people likely would have gone ahead and done so even if Terry Jones hadn't backed down. The protesters in Afghanistan know by now that Korans were burned, even if the number is one fewer than it otherwise would have been. |
Yeah. I get that. But again, Jones was provocateur central. He was the symbolic leader of the protest. And he was its focus. So again, we don't really know what would have happened if he had gone through with his protest. Perhaps you are right. I lack your degree of certainty about it... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 11:26:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dude.....
Would you literally sacrifice your life to assure that the First Amendment to the Constitution not be repealed (the rest of the Bill of Rights would remain intact)?
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Are you prepared to sacrifice your life every single time you go out for a stroll on the sidewalk of a road, knowing you'll die at the hands of a drunk driver? Or when you take your car out for a spin?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 11:44:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Yeah. I get that. But again, Jones was provocateur central. He was the symbolic leader of the protest. And he was its focus. So again, we don't really know what would have happened if he had gone through with his protest. |
But we know what has happened in the past: almost nothing. Would Jones' behavior been seen as worse than actual U.S. government agents throwing a Qur'an in a toilet and pissing on it?| Perhaps you are right. I lack your degree of certainty about it... |
The only things I'm really certain about are the past, the fact that Muslims haven't become significantly more militant in response to grievous insults to Islam, and that we can generally predict future actions of large groups from past performance. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 15:40:12 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Dave_W said:
| It's fine for private citizens to say anything they like. It's not okay for anyone in the government to suggest that any sort of expression is "a bad idea," unless it's actually illegal. The government isn't supposed to be in the business of choosing moral paths for us. |
Yeah. The point I was trying to get across to Kil is when people tell other people to shut up, when it is clear they don't have to shut up, it runs counter to the concept of free speech. It is obviously the right of any private citizen to tell anyone else to shut up, it's just hypocritical to use your right of speech to tell another to not use theirs.
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Sorry, but that is hogwash. If anyones has the right to free speech, it is also anyones right to tell someone else that maybe his speech might not be a good idea.
Stating otherwise becomes logically contradictory. You are basically telling me that I should shut up about my idea that someone else should shut up. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
| Edited by - tomk80 on 09/12/2010 15:44:04 |
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend
Hong Kong
380 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2010 : 16:22:54 [Permalink]
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| An infinite regression of shut ups? I thought it was turtles... |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Burning the Koran: how stupid is this?
