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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2010 : 11:13:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
And most kamikazes were Japanese. Did that justify imprisoning Japanese Americans in interment camps for the duration of the war? |
Actually there was a reason they did that. One of the kamikaze pilots crash landed on the tiny Hawaiian island of Ni'ihau. He was captured by the Hawaiians but a Japanese/American family living on the island helped him escape. A very interesting story if you are interested in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident
I am not making a judgement call on whether or not the interment camps were right or wrong, just providing information. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 11:43:58 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
1) The community center can and most likely will be built. They have every legal right to build there.....but it does send a bad message to those who would do us harm....and the moderates are failing to see this point. |
How is demonstrating that we won't compromise our core principles out of fear send a "bad message?" And how does demonstrating that we're all a bunch of pussies willing to throw out every value we claim to hold dear because of the actions of a few terrorists send a "good message?"
| 2) Not all Muslims of course but too many for comfort |
How many peaceful Muslim are you willing to discriminate against for the sake of your comfort?
| Religion in general needs to be treated/addressed based upon it's core tenants.....not what "most followers" actually believe. |
So you're for treating people according to beliefs they may not actually hold? Look, I understand that religious moderates enable the militants through tacit silence. But that's not a reason to discriminate against the moderates. Again, criticism is fine. Discrimination is not. Can you acknowledge the difference?
| 3) Religious moderates are a BIG part of the problem. Religious tolerance needs to go bye bye. Not all religions are created equal and therefore they should not be treated equally. No one needs to renounce Islam.....but the tenants of Islam do need to change. It needs to evolve toward modern ethical/moral standards and it needs to to it quickly. This of course will not happen. |
The issue isn't whether Islam needs to be criticized but how that criticism will be expressed. All religions should be treated equally so long as they follow the laws in place.
| We are very quickly reaching a point where a very small minority could literally bring modern civilization to a screeching halt......or worse. Where a single individual could destroy an entire city.....not today......but too soon for comfort. |
Yes, we live in scary times. But do we have more to gain by radicalizing the moderates or assuring them that they're welcome so long as they don't resort to violence?
| Of the three major religions Islam is CLEARLY the most dangerous and the moderates screaming for tolerance may be the primary avenue to our demise. |
Why can't we be tolerant of the moderates and intolerant of the militants? Why do you maintain that our only options are to be either completely intolerant of all Muslims or so tolerant that we passively sit and watch as Islam destroys modern civilization? People are rejecting Harris' argument because it's based on a false dichotomy.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/19/2010 11:45:24 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:05:49 [Permalink]
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I have decided to shut the fuck up about this non-story/non-event and therefore, I post this piece of Republican crap sans comment.
GOP consultant: Mosque will ‘train and recruit’ future terrorists
By David Edwards and Muriel Kane
Thursday, August 19th, 2010 -- 11:44 am
Political consultant Dick Morris, who is known for using his appearances on Fox News to solicit support for Republican candidates and policies, now appears to have jumped wholeheartedly on the latest anti-Muslim bandwagon. During an appearance Thursday on Fox & Friends, he gave voice to a particularly extreme form of opposition to the building of an Islamic cultural center near the former site of the World Trade Center.
Morris began by asserting that President Obama and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi "made a huge mistake" by saying that Muslims have a legal right to build the center at a location of their choosing.
"I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country," the president told a gathering last week. "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances."
"He should have said 'No way,'" Morris insisted.
Some Democratic politicians, like Harry Reid and Howard Dean, have framed the cultural center issue as one of "sensitivity" towards the families of 9/11 victims, but Morris was far more interested in evoking the specter of terrorists bent on jihad and determined to impose Islamic law on the West.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:13:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
"Contemporary meanings? Mind reading? Limiting the range in order to get desired results?" Dave is actually appealing to interpretation and vagueness as a defense. Will he cherry-pick his Koran references, too? |
Are you kidding me? Do you think that every Christian interprets every Bible passage the same way, and thus they all believe that the "dogma" says the same thing(s)?How can I evade that which you haven't actually argued for?| No, Dave, the onus is upon you to prove that every possible discussion about islamic dogma is bigotry. |
Why? I'm not arguing that every discussion about Islamic dogma is bigotry. I'm arguing that you haven't actually discussed any particular Islamic dogma.| All those stringent requirements apply to you. Tell me, Dave, do you, for some inexplicable reason, believe that islam in America somehow intrinsically different from all the rest of islam in the world? |
I see no evidence that all Muslims adhere identically to the same dogmas. I see evidence that some Muslims interpret the Koran's teaching differently than other Muslims. Do you believe that Sufi Islam is intrinsically identical to Sunni?| On what do you base this belief? |
Observation.| Do you somehow believe that the experiences of Europe will somehow magically not be repeated here? |
Do you somehow believe that the experiences of Europe were prompted by terrorist attacks on European soil that killed over 3,000 people? Our experiences are already different. And so are our laws. How could the future be identical?| You sound like someone saying that cyanide won't hurt "me" even if it kills everyone else who drinks it because (fill in the blank). |
Now you're comparing Muslims to cyanide. Nice.| And, yes, I noticed how you tried to change the subject matter from islam to muslims - from ideas to people - exposing your determination to confuse of the two. |
Yeah, right. Man, that's piss-poor evasion. The ideas didn't destroy the Twin Towers, dglas. People did. Islam hasn't done anything in Europe, Muslims have.| First, Dave, I have to try, just as Sam Harris does, to get through the noise of people like Dude who mindlessly squeal "bigotry" with arms folded and fingers firmly in ears and in lieu of actually talking about the subject matter. This requires baby steps, apparently. Look how emotionally charged Dude's opening post was - "how any democrat can fail to see the obvious position" (the "obvious" position) doesn't leave a lot (any, actually) room for discussion. Aren't you embarrassed by this person calling himself a "skeptic?" |
Of course not. He knows that Muslims don't all act the same, and that the principles this country was built on are more important than protecting ourselves from something which may not happen. There is only one correct answer in this debate, and that is that the people who own the building must be allowed to build whatever they want to there (subject to zoning and code). If religion enters into any argument against it, then any legal prohibition based on that argument will violate the First Amendment. There's certainly no getting around that.
And if you say that Islam is impermissible there, then you have to be prepared for other people to say that atheism is impermissible somewhere else. Are you ready to do that? Is that the sort of principle you want to stand by?| Now Dude is just being Dude, which is to say, generally nonsensical, oblivious and worthless, aggressive, abusive and ridiculous. His opening post might be a warning sign to any rational person that what follows is emotional, vitriolic garbage, which it is. Now, as rational, thinking people, we have to rise above Dude's tantrum-attempts to use force of will to forbid any discussion or thought and actually consider arguments based on merit rather that plastering a label on them and trying to pretend they don't exist. I class Dude in the same category as Dennis Markuze, but with a different "message." Is this a board for ranting, or a board for thinking? |
Well, you certainly seem to be trying to turn it into a board for insults.| I have just had to spend several posts trying to defend examining ideas - among self-professed skeptics! How incredibly pathetic is that? |
What's pathetic is that you haven't presented the ideas to be examined. "The dogma" is not an idea held by Muslims anywhere.
You said to moakley:| It is a classic attempt to equate the dogma with the people... |
What "dogma?"| ...such that any critique of the ideas becomes a personal attack. |
You haven't critiqued even a single Islamic idea in this thread.| Honestly, I see little in this thread but a mob-mentality, rallying behind a word. |
Actually, I'm rallying against the word "dogma," but you're the one who keeps using it without showing us its referent. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:31:20 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
As I stated before I do not oppose the construction, my point is that people that oppose the construction are not all bigots. They have concerns that may be worth discussing. |
What are those concerns?
I know I am very concerned that 70% of the US population thinks it's okay to piss on the Constitution because they're worried about a religion, brown people and/or terrorism. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:43:01 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I think it's high time dglas stops pontificating in generalities and addresses some specifics.
1) What's the clear and present danger of allowing Muslim Americans to built a community center on Park Avenue?
2) Do fears that Muslims are out to destroy America's laws and values justify preemptively destroying America's laws and values?
3) If all Muslims are members of a violent religion, how should we handle the Muslims who are already legally in America? Should Muslims be barred from entering the country until they renounce Islam? What solutions and course of action are actually being proposed?
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I think everyone is completely missing dglas's (and Sam Harris's) point.
1) The community center can and most likely will be built. They have every legal right to build there.....but it does send a bad message to those who would do us harm....and the moderates are failing to see this point.
2) Not all Muslims of course but too many for comfort (which is approximately 1%) Religion in general needs to be treated/addressed based upon it's core tenants.....not what "most followers" actually believe.
3) Religious moderates are a BIG part of the problem. Religious tolerance needs to go bye bye. Not all religions are created equal and therefore they should not be treated equally. No one needs to renounce Islam.....but the tenants of Islam do need to change. It needs to evolve toward modern ethical/moral standards and it needs to to it quickly. This of course will not happen.
We are very quickly reaching a point where a very small minority could literally bring modern civilization to a screeching halt......or worse. Where a single individual could destroy an entire city.....not today......but too soon for comfort.
Of the three major religions Islam is CLEARLY the most dangerous and the moderates screaming for tolerance may be the primary avenue to our demise.
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There is something greater at risk here, and that is the essential value of freedom of thought. This is something that no one can take away from us, no matter how many people they kill. But we can, apparently with ease, remove this from ourselves. This is the ultimate capitulation, to restrict our own rights out of fear. I have to reject such thinking entirely and vehemently object to those who engage in it.
You know very well my opinion of religion, I think it's a virus that propigates ignorance and (as Sam Harris says) ultimately encourages fundamentalism through the voices of moderates calling for tolerance. I'm all for fighting the ideas of religion with secularism, skepticism, and science. What I am not willing to do is see us place any limits with government control on who gets to think what. If we do that, in that moment, we lose.
If we don't stand by the idea that everyone has the essential right to think their own thoughts, say what ever they want to say, then we will end up like those countries passing anti-blashpemy laws, or worse.
The government must remain a disinterested party in the debate over religion, it must allow everyone to think and express their views without interference. We already limit the practice of religion and the freedom of speech to an appropriate degree, right up until you interfere with other people's rights you can think and say whatever you want. Anything else is too far.
There is no reason to think that our system can't deal with the threat of religious extremists without changing it around.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 12:53:00 [Permalink]
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filthy quoted:| Some Democratic politicians, like Harry Reid and Howard Dean, have framed the cultural center issue as one of "sensitivity" towards the families of 9/11 victims... |
There's your answer, Dude: the Democrats are being led by dimwits who don't understand that we need to be equally sensitive to the families of the 23 Muslim 9/11 victims. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 13:11:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
How is demonstrating that we won't compromise our core principles out of fear send a "bad message?" And how does demonstrating that we're all a bunch of pussies willing to throw out every value we claim to hold dear because of the actions of a few terrorists send a "good message?" |
You think building a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero sends a positive message to those who brought down the buildings? Shows how strong we are? They are not going to see it that way.
| 2)How many peaceful Muslim are you willing to discriminate against for the sake of your comfort? |
What discrimination?.....neither I or Sam Harris are saying they can't build there. Just trying to open up discussion and questioning the reasoning behind building it in that location. It can be built there....but should it be?
From Harris - "The erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory—and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice. It is also true that honest, freedom-loving Muslims should be the first to view their fellow Muslims somewhat differently. At this point in human history, Islam simply is different from other faiths. The challenge we all face, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is to find the most benign and practical ways of mitigating these differences and of changing this religion for the better. It is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of Islam pose a special threat to civil society. Nor is it a sign of intolerance to notice when people are simply not being honest about what they and their co-religionists believe."
| So you're for treating people according to beliefs they may not actually hold? Look, I understand that religious moderates enable the militants through tacit silence. But that's not a reason to discriminate against the moderates. Again, criticism is fine. Discrimination is not. Can you acknowledge the difference? |
Yes.....again, what discrimination? This is about criticizing & opening dialog not rejecting the proposed building.
| The issue isn't whether Islam needs to be criticized but how that criticism will be expressed. All religions should be treated equally so long as they follow the laws in place. |
Agreed....treated equally under the law....not by discourse.
| Yes, we live in scary times. But do we have more to gain by radicalizing the moderates or assuring them that they're welcome so long as they don't resort to violence? |
That depends on the level of discourse that can be achieved and what progress can be made. I don't see much room for change here.
| Why can't we be tolerant of the moderates and intolerant of the militants? Why do you maintain that our only options are to be either completely intolerant of all Muslims or so tolerant that we passively sit and watch as Islam destroys modern civilization? People are rejecting Harris' argument because it's based on a false dichotomy. |
What complete intolerance?
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I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 13:41:13 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
You think building a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero sends a positive message to those who brought down the buildings? Shows how strong we are? They are not going to see it that way. |
Who gives a fuck how the terrorists see it? I care about how peaceful Muslims and the rest of the civilized world see us.
| What discrimination?.....neither I or Sam Harris are saying they can't build there. Just trying to open up discussion and questioning the reasoning behind building it in that location. It can be built there....but should it be? |
It's disrespectful, offensive, and bigoted to expect Muslim Americans, some of whom were themselves victims of 9-11, to change their plans because because reactionary morons can't tell the difference between them and Al Qaeda militants. Questioning the "appropriateness" of building a mosque near ground zero is discriminatory because it implicitly assumes that all Muslims are the same.
| From Harris - "The challenge we all face, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is to find the most benign and practical ways of mitigating these differences and of changing this religion for the better." |
And what better way to "change Islam for the better" than by allowing them to practice Islam in America so long as they abide by our laws and values? The building of a mosque in NYC should be exactly the sort of thing Harris wants to see happen.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/19/2010 13:43:15 |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 14:01:01 [Permalink]
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Then clearly you do not understand what Islam teaches and give far too much credence to what moderate Muslims believe as well. Most are not extremists....but even what many of the moderates do believe is dangerous to our way of life. They are not going to "abide by our values" The very teachings of Islam abhor Western culture and modernity.
Look.....my take is that ALL RELIGIONS need to go bye-bye (or be rendered completely impotent) or it will eventually result in the demise of human civilization. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 14:02:04 [Permalink]
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Astropin said:
What discrimination?.....neither I or Sam Harris are saying they can't build there. Just trying to open up discussion and questioning the reasoning behind building it in that location. It can be built there....but should it be?
From Harris - "The erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory—and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice. It is also true that honest, freedom-loving Muslims should be the first to view their fellow Muslims somewhat differently. At this point in human history, Islam simply is different from other faiths. The challenge we all face, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, is to find the most benign and practical ways of mitigating these differences and of changing this religion for the better. It is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of Islam pose a special threat to civil society. Nor is it a sign of intolerance to notice when people are simply not being honest about what they and their co-religionists believe."
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First, its fucking two city blocks away. Second, there is already a mosque nearby.
Third, and most importantly, why the fuck would we let the ignorant and uninformed opinion of "millions of muslims" guide our actions? Seriously, what the fuck?
And yes, they can damn well build their mosque there as long as they are in compliance with local, state, and federal laws. They have that right and that ends the discussion. All this bullshit about "should they?" is meaningless. The right to do it implies that they should do it. Only by actively exercising your rights do you ensure that you retain them. If they have the right to do it then the discussion is over. Harris et al should stick to criticising the stupidity of islamic beliefs(or any other religious beliefs). Saying that a person has a right to do something but then saying they shouldn't do it is tantamount to you saying they shouldn't have that right.
The big picture matters and I'm going to stick by our system of laws and the Constitution. Islam poses no threat to us unless we ourselves decide to discard the rights we have assigned to everyone. Harris wants to change Islam? Well, as H.H. said, if they practice their religion here they must practice it in a way that doesn't violate our laws. They will have to discard their sharia nonsense and the other tenets that come into conflict with our laws.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 14:05:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Then clearly you do not understand what Islam teaches and give far too much credence to what moderate Muslims believe as well. Most are not extremists....but even what many of the moderates do believe is dangerous to our way of life. They are not going to "abide by our values" The very teachings of Islam abhor Western culture and modernity.
Look.....my take is that ALL RELIGIONS need to go bye-bye (or be rendered completely impotent) or it will eventually result in the demise of human civilization.
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No, some of us just put more "faith" (based on two centuries of success) in our system to be able to win out vs islam, without the need to compromise our rights and freedoms.
It's a pretty sad statement that so many people don't.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 14:12:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Just trying to open up discussion and questioning the reasoning behind building it in that location. |
What is the reasoning behind building it there? Seems to me like the only reason they need is that they own the building and had been having services in it for some time before even proposing that it become a cultural/community center with a mosque inside. Is there some other reason that needs to be discussed?| It can be built there....but should it be? |
Do we ask such questions about sectarian community centers? How about Christian churches? | From Harris - "The erection of a mosque upon the ashes of this atrocity will also be viewed by many millions of Muslims as a victory—and as a sign that the liberal values of the West are synonymous with decadence and cowardice. |
The prohibition of the erection of a mosque a couple of blocks from the ashes of that atrocity would be viewed by billions of people the world over as a sign that the liberal values of the USA are synonymous with cowardice and paranoia. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 14:20:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Then clearly you do not understand what Islam teaches... |
Forcryingoutloud, what does Islam teach that's at issue here? Why won't anyone who asks us to discuss Islam actually talk about Islam? You, astropin are saying nothing about what Islam teaches, and neither is dglas.| ...and give far too much credence to what moderate Muslims believe as well. |
You've got evidence that they're lying?| Most are not extremists....but even what many of the moderates do believe is dangerous to our way of life. |
So is all faith. So why pick on Islam? I'm sure we can find some synagogue somewhere that's being planned towards which we can ask, "should it be built?"| They are not going to "abide by our values" |
I thought this was about ideas, and not about people.| The very teachings of Islam abhor Western culture and modernity. |
Which ones? Be specific.| Look.....my take is that ALL RELIGIONS need to go bye-bye (or be rendered completely impotent) or it will eventually result in the demise of human civilization. |
But that's not going to happen by denying a building permit. We need to get society as a whole to reject religion before we can go tinkering with the First Amendment. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2010 : 14:27:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
They are not going to "abide by our values." |
What choice will they have? So long as they are in our country, they'll have to. Unless, of course, we demonstrate that we have no interest in abiding by them ourselves.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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I… WTF…?
