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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 08/21/2010 : 03:39:06 [Permalink]
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A handjob at FOX has the solution:
Fox host: Muslims should ‘give up their rights’ and not rely on the First Amendment
By David Edwards
Friday, August 20th, 2010 -- 6:43 pm
Fox News host and legal analyst Peter J. Johnson, Jr. says Muslims in New York should "give up their rights" and move the Park51 Islamic center in order to please opponents.
In a Friday commentary on Fox & Friends, Johnson visited the site of the proposed Islamic center. There he expressed his opinion that the First Amendment shouldn't be a factor in whether or not the proposed center is moved because "when we invoke our First Amendment as a sword, not a shield, it means we have lost sight of and broken faith with our national identity and strength."
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Bullshit! He also has the effrontery to compare this ridiculous incident to the poisonous antics of Westboro Baptist.
Farther down the page, we find a little patriotic sanctimony:
| "I look for the day when this is no longer about politicians or pain or protest, but about neighbors becoming good neighbors," he went on. "Thank God and our founders for the First Amendment, but God help us if it all comes down to the need to rely upon it. ... Great Americans give up their rights to help those they share nothing else with but a love of this country." |
Coming from FOX, a company that loves nothing better than cast the first stone, without sin or otherwise, this is nothing but a pot-stirer.
And they're not alone:
Not every conservative is as respectful of First Amendment rights, even nominally, as Johnson. Jason Sager, a candidate for the 5th Congressional District in Florida who describes himself as a strict constitutionalist, told The Saint Petersburg Times that "there is nothing to preclude states and local authorities from determining what will or will not be built on their streets."
Reporter Dan DeWitt thought that "didn't sound right," so he called Florida State law professor and First Amendment authority Talbot "Sandy" D'Alemberte, who told him that Constitutional limits to federal authority "took a major hit in 1868, with the passage of the 14th Amendment, which says states can't deny U.S. citizens basic rights."
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I am hating this more with each passing, demagoguery-filled day.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 03:52:32 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by dglasLet me see if I get this straight. You are claiming that what muslims believe is not influenced by the Koran. |
Strawman. Try again. Come on, it's not that hard.
Here, let me help you on the way. Do you think Reza Aslan thinks people who leave Islam should be killed?
| And there go the hopes of raising the level of conversation with this person, too. |
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 04:03:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
I don't see how that is true. What counts as muslim violence? There has been nearly endless violence in the past 90 years in SOME Islamic nation, not continuous in any single one. Lots of struggles for independence, Israel fighting everyone, various civil wars/revolutions, Turkey/Cyprus, Iran/Iraq, Kashmir, Soviet/Afghan, Chechnya, etc etc.
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True. What I mean is two things:
1) The many disputes you mention could easier be seen as independent from the islamic faith.
2) European and American countries had a lot of violent disputes at that time as well, as opposed to the last 10 to 20 years where such violence has generally subsided.
This makes the violence in islamic nations stand out at this time, where it didn't as much 20 years ago. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 07:50:29 [Permalink]
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| You know, Wikipedia lists 262 conflicts since 1921 (the last 90 years), and generally has articles about them detailing their causes, if someone seriously wants to make the argument that Islam-based conflicts have been on the increase (or not). I imagine it'd be an interesting discussion, at least in defining what to include and exclude. For example, the Soviet/Afghan conflict began partly in response to the Afghan government's oppression of Islamic traditions. Should that count in a discussion of the violence of Islam, or should only conflicts of clear Islamic aggression be included, like the Islamic revolution in Iran? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 13:21:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by dglas
So, your argument is that everyone ignores the content of the Koran and the Hadiths. |
No, that's your strawman again. You must be exhausted from beating up on that pathetic thing.I don't need to provide evidence for an argument that only exists inside your head.
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Evasion noted.
So your argument is that at least some do *not* ignore the Koran and the Hadiths?
Will you then admit that these dogmatic works have influence on (at least) some?
If so, what is the content of these works with respect to the freedoms of others? |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 13:23:33 [Permalink]
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Quoth Dude:
"...[blah, blah, blah] ..."
Still pointing and laughing at you.
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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| Edited by - dglas on 08/21/2010 13:27:26 |
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dglas
Skeptic Friend
Canada
397 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 13:25:53 [Permalink]
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Dave, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say the Koran and Hadiths influence no one, and that they influence some at the same time.
Let me know when you make the call. |
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- dglas (In the hell of 1000 unresolved subplots...)
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The Presupposition of Intrinsic Evil
+ A Self-Justificatory Framework
= The "Heart of Darkness"
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 13:31:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by astropin
Can we agree that today, fundamentalist Muslims differ from fundamentalist Christians & Jews? (In both their desire and capacity to harm others....worldwide).
(This has nothing to due with the mosque.....just a straight up general question)
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Well, lets se...
| fundamentalist Christians |
Americal forces are murdering innocent Pakistanian Muslims, and Iraqies. (Not counting journalists and childred, see link in my .sig) What the f* are they still doing in Iraq anyway?
What about West Bank and Gaza? Or the supply convoy on International Waters...
Just sayin'...
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 14:05:25 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Dave, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say the Koran and Hadiths influence no one, and that they influence some at the same time.
Let me know when you make the call.
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Neither of which is what Dave W. is saying. Perhaps you should try to react to his actual argument?
Or perhaps just a real-life example:
Do you think Reza Aslan thinks people who leave Islam should be killed? |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 14:12:19 [Permalink]
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| You are going to have to face this, like it or not, because islam will force you to. Your "live and let live" principle will be be broken, by islam's "convert or die" absolutism. The only choice you get is whether most of the principle will remain. You will either suspend your Constitution, or limit its application, or you will see it utterly decimated. Those are your choices; if you think otherwise, you are living in a dream world. You had better get acclimated to that and started thinking with some clarity. |
dglas, do you believe a significant portion of Muslims who live in America want to subvert the constitution? If so, can you give a ball park percentage? 25, 50, 75, or above 90? |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 14:18:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
True. What I mean is two things:
1) The many disputes you mention could easier be seen as independent from the islamic faith. |
What current conflict can we not say this about? Other than relatively isolated incidents of violence (Van Gogh, couple cases of honor killings) and repressive regimes (if those count, not sure they're any more prevalent now than they ever were), most anything large scale we could still blame on politics. Even aspirations to re-establish a caliphate can be seen as a sort of pan-Arab chauvinism.
2) European and American countries had a lot of violent disputes at that time as well, as opposed to the last 10 to 20 years where such violence has generally subsided.
This makes the violence in islamic nations stand out at this time, where it didn't as much 20 years ago. |
That's true. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
| Edited by - Machi4velli on 08/21/2010 14:22:09 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 15:45:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Machi4velli
What current conflict can we not say this about? Other than relatively isolated incidents of violence (Van Gogh, couple cases of honor killings) and repressive regimes (if those count, not sure they're any more prevalent now than they ever were), most anything large scale we could still blame on politics. Even aspirations to re-establish a caliphate can be seen as a sort of pan-Arab chauvinism. |
Sure, but that is part of my point. It seems to me that if you want to designate islam as a violent religion, or the cause of the violence, you should actually be able to actively eliminate other possible causes. I do not think we can do that and therefore think we should not designate Islam as inherently violent. At least not as inherently more violent than Christianity, Judaism or Hinduism for example.
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Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2010 : 16:49:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by dglas
Dave, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot say the Koran and Hadiths influence no one, and that they influence some at the same time. |
I haven't said either one. Is "the Koran and Hadiths" what you meant when you said "dogma?" I still don't know. If it is, then I'm sure that some parts of them influence some people, and other parts influence others, and still other parts influence nobody at all. People are also influenced by what Muslim leaders say about the Koran and Hadiths, even if they don't actually say any such thing.
Just like with the Torah and the Bible. I know of nobody who follows 100% of the dogma of any religion (except for Edward Current, of course), and so it is necessary to pay attention to what people actually believe about their religion, instead of focusing on "the dogma." It seems to me that all sources of prescriptive behavior are pick-and-choose menus from which people build their own "scripture." If it were otherwise, there would have been no schisms.| Let me know when you make the call. |
It's not my call to make. You are the one with something to say, dglas. I'm still interested in hearing what it is, so long as it isn't more vague generalities or insulting strawmen. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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I… WTF…?
