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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2010 : 04:53:31 [Permalink]
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I still ain't buying it. I do not see how these charts prove anything other than showing temperature increases for a very short period of time. (I dunno...1000-2000 years seems a short period of time to me) I would be much more interested in seeing accurate information that covers the beginning of last ice age to present day. There's just too much speculating going on to estimate the temperatures before 1850 for my taste.
I suppose it's kind of irrelevent (for me anyway) who or what is causing climate change because I am on cleaning the environment's side no matter if it is proven to be the fault of humans or not.
I still think rather than worrying so much about what people beleive is causing climate change we should be concentrating more on a plan to deal with the displaced people from the coastal cities because we KNOW that is going to happen. Other changes in climate for the interior of the continents are too difficult to predict accurately so those will have to be dealt with as they happen.
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You haven't dug deeply enough. While it is true that accurate temperature records much before 1850 are hazy, due mainly to no one keeping records, and a shortage of thermometers, it is possible to trace the climate back far earlier with a degree of accuracy.
The temperature record shows the fluctuations of the temperature of the atmosphere and the oceans through various spans of time. The most detailed information exists since 1850, when methodical thermometer-based records began. There are numerous estimates of temperatures since the end of the Pleistocene glaciation, particularly during the current Holocene epoch. Older time periods are studied by paleoclimatology.
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Necessarily, these measurements are much coarser but they work. For example, if a grain of pollen from a known species of plant shows up in an ice core, then we have a pretty good idea of what the temperature was at the time the grain settled on the ice.
Mountain Glaciers and the polar ice caps/ice sheets are a widely employed source of data in paleoclimatology. Recent ice coring projects in the ice caps of Greenland and Antarctica have yielded data going back several hundred thousand years—over 800,000 years in the case of the EPICA project.
Air trapped within fallen snow becomes encased in tiny bubbles as the snow is compressed into ice in the glacier under the weight of later years' snow. This trapped air has proven a tremendously valuable source for direct measurement of the composition of air from the time the ice was formed.
Layering can be observed due to seasonal pauses in ice accumulation and can be used to establish chronology; associating specific depths of the core with ranges of time.
Changes in the layering thickness can be used to determine changes in precipitation or temperature.
Oxygen-18 quantity changes (#948;18O) in ice layers represent changes in average ocean surface temperature. Water molecules containing the heavier O-18 evaporate at a higher temperature than water molecules containing the normal Oxygen-16 isotope. The ratio of O-18 to O-16 will be higher as temperature increases and less as temperature decreases. Various cycles in those isotope ratios have been detected.
Pollen has been observed in the ice cores and can be used to understand which plants were present as the layer formed. Pollen is produced in abundance and its distribution is typically well understood. A pollen count for a specific layer can be produced by observing the total amount of pollen categorized by type (shape) in a controlled sample of that layer. Changes in plant frequency over time can be plotted through statistical analysis of pollen counts in the core. Knowing which plants were present leads to an understanding of precipitation and temperature, and types of fauna present. Palynology includes the study of pollen for these purposes.
Volcanic ash is contained in some layers, and can be used to establish the time of the layer's formation. Each volcanic event distributed ash with a unique set of properties (shape and color of particles, chemical signature). Establishing the ash's source will establish a range of time to associate with layer of ice.
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Simple, no? Well, not really but then much of science is complicated and difficult. If it weren't, everybody would do it. Then where would we be?
However, if this study is accurate, the whole question will become moot very soon.
The world will run out of oil around 100 years before replacement energy sources are available if oil use and development of new fuels continue at the current pace, a US study warns.
In the study, researchers at the University of California, Davis (UC-Davis) used the current share prices of oil companies and alternative energy companies to predict when replacement fuels will be ready to fill the gap left when oil runs dry.
And the findings weren't very good for the oil-hungry world.
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It's kind of a quandary, isn't it? We need energy to develop alternate forms of energy and all but a minuscule portion of our available energy comes from petroleum. Which hasn't all that long to last.
If the study is accurate.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/16/2010 05:00:33 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 07:29:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I suppose it's kind of irrelevent (for me anyway) who or what is causing climate change because I am on cleaning the environment's side no matter if it is proven to be the fault of humans or not. |
Actually, it's pretty important. A popular denialist argument, after all, is that all the warming is natural and due to processes (like the Sun's brightness) that we can't possibly do anything about, so therefore any attempts at mitigating the problem are doomed to failure and promoting "green" energy is nothing more than a ploy to take your hard-earned dollars and give them to tree-hugging socialist hippies.
If the people who make such arguments were correct, I'd be right there with 'em, saying, "screw the energy tax" and railing against cap-and-trade and other government regulation, except that "green" technologies aim for high efficiency as well as a low carbon footprint, and high efficiency means it's cheaper in the long term, so I'd still have most of the lights in my house as CFLs and try to keep my central air from running too much. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 11:10:25 [Permalink]
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Running your car on ethanol (E85) is actually more energy effective than running it on gasoline.
It contains less energy than gasoline per volume (or weight). But once you've accounted for this, the engine actually runs cheaper, more effective.
And that's even before you start optimizing the otto-engine for ethanol.
That's why I'm currently running my own car on E85; it's a little cheaper, it's more effective, and it's green. (Or rather: greener) |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2010 : 11:29:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Running your car on ethanol (E85) is actually more energy effective than running it on gasoline.
It contains less energy than gasoline per volume (or weight). But once you've accounted for this, the engine actually runs cheaper, more effective.
And that's even before you start optimizing the otto-engine for ethanol.
That's why I'm currently running my own car on E85; it's a little cheaper, it's more effective, and it's green. (Or rather: greener)
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Here is my concern about E85. Around here E85 is made from corn. If E85 became the standard fuel then the farms here would be producing corn for fuel use rather than for food. If that happens then the price of fuel may go down but the price of corn based food would go up. I'd really like to find a different alternative fuel source.
A few years our state was trying to pass a law requiring fuel companies to purchase ethanol and blend it with their fuel. Fortunately it got voted down.
Here is what I like much better Hydraulic Vehicles
One thing I am curious about. I know a fella who drives a 1991 Geo Metro 3 cylinder which gets 50-55 mpg. Why the fuck could they make a car that gets that kind of mileage 20 years ago but they can't seem to make them today? What The fuck?
*edited to ramble some more and curse a little bit |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 11/16/2010 11:47:10 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2010 : 13:32:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Here is my concern about E85. Around here E85 is made from corn. |
Yes, that is a concern as current production methods of producing ethanol from corn has a relatively low yield compared to other crops like sugar cane, sugar beet, wheat, or sweet sorghum.
"old news" from 2008...: http://biofuelsrevolution.com/feedstocks/sweet-sorghum/
The main advantages of producing ethanol from sweet sorghum juice are:
High Yield – Sweet sorghum yields between 500 to 800 gallons of ethanol per acre (4700 to 7500 liters per hectare);
Water Efficient Crop – Sweet sorghum requires one-half of the water required to grow corn and one third of the water required to grow sugarcane; |
And there's more on that page.
| If E85 became the standard fuel then the farms here would be producing corn for fuel use rather than for food. If that happens then the price of fuel may go down but the price of corn based food would go up. I'd really like to find a different alternative fuel source. |
With alternate crops like sweet sorghum, lands not worthy to support food crops can be cultivated. Also, contaminated land may be used.
I really can't think of a good reason why the "radioactive" lands around Chernobyl couldn't be used to grow sugar beet and sorghum for ethanol fuel. As long as the waste and leftovers is returned to be used as fertilizer to the area, there will be no spreading of the radioactivity.
| A few years our state was trying to pass a law requiring fuel companies to purchase ethanol and blend it with their fuel. Fortunately it got voted down. |
In Sweden, Unleaded 95 RON has 5% ethanol in it, produced from domestic wheat not good enough for flour. The ethanol in E85 comes mainly from Brazilian sugar-cane.
I just read a sugar cane refinery was being built in California (Imperial Valley).
The Swedish ethanol pioneer, who delivers ~80 of the ethanol to Sweden's E85 taps just released a press release about their successful up-scaling of their experiments using gene-modified yeast to process cellulose. Pretty soon, we can have large scale production of ethanol from more than just plain sugar.
I've always been skeptical about using compressed gas to store energy as pressure; when gas is compressed, the temperature of the gas increase according to the ideal gas law: pV=nRT
When the gas is stored in the tank, the heat will start leaking out of the tank and the gas will lose its energy.
One thing I am curious about. I know a fella who drives a 1991 Geo Metro 3 cylinder which gets 50-55 mpg. Why the fuck could they make a car that gets that kind of mileage 20 years ago but they can't seem to make them today? What The fuck?
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Part of the energy consumption is used to accelerate the car's mass, and to negate the friction (which also depends on the car's mass). Ask your fella how much his car weighs, and compare that to the compact cars made today.
Even a Totoya Yaris weighs in over 1100kg !!! That's 300kg more than my old 1968 Opel Olympia A.
On the other hand, the safety and comfort level is so much higher in today's car: In a frontal collision, neither your friend's car nor my Opel would survive against the Yaris. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/19/2010 07:43:20 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/19/2010 : 05:22:52 [Permalink]
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Environmentalists, including myself, have been screaming about this for decades:
EPA to coastal states: check the acidity level in water
by Chris in Paris on 11/18/2010 05:22:00 PM
Can you even imagine the Bush EPA raising this?
The federal agency's memo Monday to states recognizes carbon dioxide as not only an air pollutant but a water pollutant, and notes the serious impacts that ocean acidification can have on aquatic life.
Ocean acidification refers to the decrease in the alkalinity of oceans, which is caused by the absorption of excess carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. As water becomes more acidic, scientists have raised concern about dissolving coral reefs and potential effects on fish and other sea life.
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It's probably too little, too late and nothing would be done, anyway. The industrial oligarchy who actually run thus country won't allow it.
"Beware the military/industrial complex" ~~ Dwight Eisenhower, the last actual Republican president.
I'm coming to consider that our species is too stupid to survive.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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jamalrapper
Sockpuppet
213 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 13:04:44 [Permalink]
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Industrialized Nations World's Lowest CO2 'Polluters'
Industrialized nations emit far less carbon dioxide than the Third World, according to latest evidence from Japan's Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA).
Global warming alarmism is turned on its head and the supposed role of carbon dioxide in climate change may be wrong, if the latest evidence from Japan's scientists is to be believed. |
http://johnosullivan.livejournal.com/41060.html |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 06:51:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
Industrialized Nations World's Lowest CO2 'Polluters'
Industrialized nations emit far less carbon dioxide than the Third World, according to latest evidence from Japan's Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA).
Global warming alarmism is turned on its head and the supposed role of carbon dioxide in climate change may be wrong, if the latest evidence from Japan's scientists is to be believed. |
http://johnosullivan.livejournal.com/41060.html
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Quoting someone's blog is hardly a relaible source.
Everything I have heard is that China is polluter #1. It's why I am against the Kyoto protocols. China is exempted under the "developing economies" classification.
My bet is that Mr. O'Sullivan used the old standby trick of cherrypicking what he calls "industrialized" nations. Quite clearly, China is in that "reddish hue" and anyone who claims that China is not an industrialized nation is flat up lying to you.
I have researched a bit using the same sources as Mr. O'Sullivan and found the Graphic he uses in his website.
It is on page 8 of this document.
http://www.gosat.nies.go.jp/eng/related/download/GOSAT_L4_Release_en.pdf
It is not what he purports it to be. It is the amount of flux (quarterly change in CO2 levels) for a region. He focused on July, 2009 because it fit his anti-climate change agenda. He convieniently ignores the other graphs because it doesn't match his agenda.
It is safe to say that Mr. O'Sullivan invented the findings he suggests.
Any other lies you wish to share? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2012 : 07:51:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by jamalrapper
Industrialized Nations World's Lowest CO2 'Polluters'
Industrialized nations emit far less carbon dioxide than the Third World, according to latest evidence from Japan's Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA).
Global warming alarmism is turned on its head and the supposed role of carbon dioxide in climate change may be wrong, if the latest evidence from Japan's scientists is to be believed. |
http://johnosullivan.livejournal.com/41060.html
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Consider the source:
Climate inactivist John O'Sullivan is a British attorney, not a scientist. He writes for the right-wing magazine, National Review. He has also been lawyering for Dr. Tim Ball, a former Canadian geography prof and AGW denier (not a climatologist, despite his claims) as plaintiff in a libel lawsuit against a Dr. Dan Johnson, Professor of Environmental Science at the University of Lethbridge.
(Ball himself is a co-author with O'Sullivan and several others of the quoted e-book, Slaying the Sky Dragon: Death of the Greenhouse Gas Theory. Through his anti-science mercenary think-tanks, he is also in the pay of petrochemical companies, which explains his AGW denialism. Ball's arguments on AGW range from it's not happening, to anyway, it's good for us.)
The authors of Slaying the Sky Dragon are a perfect showcase of not-climatologists. These are their professions: A chemist, a "retired Texan engineer" (a former oil man?), a math prof, a materials engineer/physicist/"Objectivist," a retired geography prof, a lawyer/journalist, and an explosives engineer.
I haven't yet directly connected lawyer John O'Sullivan to any of the anti-science-for-dollars outfits like Dr. Ball's Natural Resources Stewardship Project or his Frontier Centre for Public Policy (or with the Heartland Institute for that matter), but certainly his connection with National Review should cause caution about his objectivity. And he's certainly not a scientist. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 02/16/2012 09:17:14 |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 01:37:44 [Permalink]
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Update to the last post:
It seems that Dr. Tim Ball lost his suit against Dr. Dan Johnson rather ignominiously (Ball had accused Johnson of lying when he said Ball's claim of being a climatologist was bogus):| Ball’s last foray into the court ended badly. Ball attempted to sue another Canadian scientist, Dr. Dan Johnson, in 2006, complaining that a letter that Johnson had written to the Calgary Herald suggested that Ball had lied about his resume. When Johnson’s Statement of Defence demonstrated that Ball HAD lied about his resume, Ball abandoned the suit. |
Here's the source link for the above quote, with info about other scientists who are now suing Dr. Bell for what he's said about them. (Maybe Bell would have been wiser not to have been the first to open up the legal can of worms. Then again, since when was Bell ever wise?) |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 06:46:46 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HalfMooner
Update to the last post:
It seems that Dr. Tim Ball lost his suit against Dr. Dan Johnson rather ignominiously (Ball had accused Johnson of lying when he said Ball's claim of being a climatologist was bogus):| Ball’s last foray into the court ended badly. Ball attempted to sue another Canadian scientist, Dr. Dan Johnson, in 2006, complaining that a letter that Johnson had written to the Calgary Herald suggested that Ball had lied about his resume. When Johnson’s Statement of Defence demonstrated that Ball HAD lied about his resume, Ball abandoned the suit. |
Here's the source link for the above quote, with info about other scientists who are now suing Dr. Bell for what he's said about them. (Maybe Bell would have been wiser not to have been the first to open up the legal can of worms. Then again, since when was Bell ever wise?)
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Whoa.
Somebody better send Ball the definition of "Hoisting upon ones own petard". |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2012 : 07:04:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
Whoa.
Somebody better send Ball the definition of "Hoisting upon ones own petard". |
Damn! That's the phrase I was trying to recall. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Climate change: science answers the deniers
