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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2010 :  18:01:59   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just so you know, Grothe was at the Con and moderated the panel that Myers was on... I'm not sure what else he did.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2010 :  18:10:02   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by H. Humbert

Originally posted by Kil
I can't comment on the Con itself because I wasn't there. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't put words in your mouth. I quoted your words directly and asked you to clarify them. You said "The problem with this Con is it seemed to be focused mainly on religion," and I merely wondered on what grounds you came to that determination.

I saw the poster and read what JT Eberhar said about it.
Also, why do you think that I think that religion shouldn't be discussed at a skeptics convention? Did you skip over the part about TAM?
No, Kil, it's just that you seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you absolutely insist that you have no problem with skeptics criticizing religion, yet you join Waggs in criticizing the latest Skepticon for doing nothing more than including talks which treated religion skeptically. So which is it? Was this latest Skepticon out of line or not? And if so, how? Please be specific.


I have no problem with religion being discussed at skeptic conventions. I was so looking forward to Dawkins keynote at TAM8. Darn but it sucked because it was just an interview with him and not very interesting. I was disappointed, being the keynote and all. I might have a problem with most of a skeptic convention being about religion, because there are so many areas of concern to skeptics. I would expect an atheist convention to be about religion. But I probably wouldn't go to one of those because it would no doubt bore me to death...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Machi4velli
SFN Regular

USA
854 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2010 :  20:09:40   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Machi4velli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by filthy
A population of hard skeptics, by it's very nature is going to have a fair to large percentage of atheists; it pretty much goes with the territory. Hard skeptics take nothing on faith; there must be firm, physical evidence to back the claim.


Wait, why does it imply a requirement for "physical" evidence? Are other sorts of evidence not possible for skeptics? Why?

"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno

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-Stephen Hawking

"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2010 :  20:13:05   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

Okay. Remove the equal sign and what you get is the idea that skepticism should lead to atheism. That’s what’s implied. You can call that should a strawman, but you know as well as I do that the implication is there.
Hell, it's not just an implication, I'll state it outright: skepticism should lead to atheism. Even the mildest form of deism involves some amount of faith, which is antithetical to skepticism.
This is political big-tentism at the expense of encouraging all people to skeptically examine all of their own ideas.
Nonsense. Once again, no one has said that religion is out of bounds for skeptics to question or that skeptics shouldn’t question their own beliefs. What they are saying is that coming to what you and I would think of as the wrong conclusion does not mean that what they bring to the table isn’t mostly reasonable and rational.
Actually, some people are saying that religion should be out-of-bounds because it'll scare away the theists with something else reasonable and rational to bring to the table. Wagg seems to be suggesting that because skeptical inquiry into religion is a dead-end, that we shouldn't bother.
Sure. I, for one, am not a "scientific skeptic." Criticial thinking, logic and reason apply outside of science, I cannot and will not limit their use to only scientific subjects. For example, the fact that "god" is untestable tells me, rationally, that it's a waste of time and effort to give that concept any credence whatsoever. That's not a scientifically skeptical conclusion, but it is a skeptical conclusion.
True. Who is saying otherwise?
Well, with the conflation of "skepticism" with "scientific skepticism," all non-scientific-but-still-skeptical conclusions must be considered to not skeptical conclusions.
Why can't you?
You know I have a very long list of well known (at least in our community) skeptics who I am friends with on facebook. These subjects are debated often. But they are done in threads mostly. What can I do?
Yeah, I've grown to dislike FB because of that. I suppose if the people involved in the debates on FB want the rest of us to know about their positions, they'll post their same arguments in more public places. If they're debating on FB because they want to have a private, invitation-only debate, then screw 'em. FB may be ubiquitous, but it's not a public forum.
Why is that a "problem?" If there is a large overlap between the set of "skeptics" and the set of "atheists," why shouldn't there be a skeptics event for the promotion of atheism?
Well, that is the question being debated, isn’t it?
Well, you said it was a problem, I was asking for your opinion.
Grothe sees no problem with it but several others do.
And I wish the discussions were more open.
Also, are we talking about the lack of evidence for a god or the promotion of atheism? There is a difference even if it’s a subtle difference. I think it’s the difference between promoting critical thinking and proselytizing. And before you accuse me of creating a strawman, I’m just responding to your choice of words. If that’s what they were doing at Skepticon, which is the concern of some, maybe it would be more precise to call it Atheistcon, eh?
Yes, there's a difference between proselytizing critical thought and proselytizing atheism. From what I can gather of seeing talk titles at Skepticon III, it is proselytizing critical thought about religion, yet a third category.

On another note, is "it's okay to be an atheist" proselytizing? It certainly is promoting.
He directly said that, when he constrasted such claims with how skepticism definitely applies to "bleeding statues."
He was speaking of scientific skepticism, obviously.
Obviously, but he's trying to conflate it with the generic term.
He has made it clear that he is an atheist due to a lack of evidence for god. But since science says little about that other than “where’s the evidence?” there isn’t much a skeptic can do with it but to conclude that “there’s probably no god.” That may be a logical conclusion, but other than to become an atheist, which most of us are, what else is there from a skeptical perspective?
There's plenty more, given religion's pernicious hold on society. We can, for example, show that since every anti-gay argument (other than "ick") boils down to a religious objection, and religions are inherently irrational, that all arguments against equal rights for homosexuals are built on vapor and wishes. They only deserve serious consideration in terms of the political power the religious have, not on any factual basis. These realizations are empowering, and there are more in all sorts of other sectors of society.
And maybe I should repeat that TAM has had all but one of the leading activist skeptics as speakers.
When can we rename TAM4 to "Stop Picking on Hal Bidlack Con?"
I have some history on this by the way. SFN exists because there was only so much we could say about agnosticism and atheism. At least for some of us, arguing with theists all the time got boring. Skepticism encompasses for more territory, including the god question.
Sure, but Wagg is arguing that there's something wrong with a bunch of skeptics who consider atheism to be the natural result of skepticism holding a convention with other like-minded skeptics about the evils of religion. At least one of these people thinks that religion is the most important issue that skeptics need to face, because it is so wide-spread and culturally entrenched. And these people probably wouldn't give a damn if a whole bunch of deists showed up who also cared strongly about eliminating mainstream religion's strangle-hold on the American electorate, so long as they didn't start whining if someone happened to mention that faith of any sort is the opposite of skepticism.
That's fine for Paul Kurtz. Why must Skepticon follow the same model?
Obviously, they don’t have to…
You made it sound like Kurtz' model should be followed by all skeptics. "Must" was the wrong word. Why should (in your opinion) Skepticon follow Kurtz' model?
That's where you're wrong. Tests of God are impossible only because of how God's proponents define God. We have no objective definition of God because there's no evidence for any god, all we have is what the believers tell us. So if homeopathic proponents define homeopathy in such a way as to make it impossible to test, it should be treated exactly the same way (and homeopaths have, in real life, claimed that it works in a way that is undetectable via scientific means). There's no fundamental difference between untestable religious claims and the untestable claims of other sorts of woo. Suggesting otherwise is to give religion some sort of special status that it does not deserve.
I’ll grant you that some claims can’t be ruled out by testing. As much as we would like to, we can’t completely rule out the existence of Bigfoot. I just think you chose a bad analogy. Doesn’t matter what the proponents say about homeopathy, if they link it to efficacy, which is exactly what they do. We know that it doesn’t work any better than a placebo, no matter what other thing they claim about it. We know that because it’s been tested. We can therefore dismiss any other claims make about “how it works” because it doesn’t.
The homeopaths have taken their cues from the ESP "researchers" who claim that having actual scientists present screw up the results. It's not a bad analogy, because the basic claim is that if you have faith in homeopathy, then it works. The efficacy that homeopaths claim isn't in the lab, but in the home, where it's totally untestable.
And you’re right. Science can’t say much about any claim that can’t be tested. And I too am skeptical of claims that lack evidence. Religion isn’t special that way.
Well, Wagg (for one) seems to think otherwise.
Wagg said, in no uncertain terms, that skepticism applies to "bleeding statues" and not to the question of Jesus rising to Heaven. According to you, what he really meant was "scientific skepticism," in which case he's right. But he's not right to assume or insist that everyone who uses the term "skepticism" must mean "scientific skepticism." That is what's stupid.
Well, you can call it stupid. But there is a very long list of things that lack evidence that we doubt. I can make some up right now. And I think that’s the point. Sure, those things deserve our skepticism, but there isn’t much we can do with it beyond pointing out that all of those claims lack evidence. We can even do it with vigor, as the atheists are doing. But beyond that, what else can we do about it? What can skepticism say beyond “it ain’t likely?”
Skepticism is a logical, rational basis for activism. For saying, "don't give money or power to these charlatans." Because the claims don't exist in a vacuum, people believe them, and it is the spread of those beliefs that need to be actively opposed. Skepticism certainly leads to more than just educational opportunities or consumer protection, as indicated by Loxton.
So you're fine with having global-warming deniers in the "skeptics" camp so long as they bring reason to the table on other issues? Ditto for bigfoot, UFO, reiki, astrology, etc. believers? I think the time and effort spent by people compartmentalizing their own beliefs into cubbyholes untouchable by skepticism is a huge waste, and I wish they'd cut it all out.
I wish they would cut it out too. And I wish everyone were an atheist. And I wish Shermer and Penn didn’t have to be convinced of AGW because their political beliefs prevented them from seeing the obvious. But yeah, if what they mostly bring to the table is reasonable and rational, I’m willing to overlook a thing or two.
And so are, from what I can see, the organizers of Skepticon III. It's when the not-completely-skeptical people or their defenders start whining about the "attacks" on religion (or whatever) that the "debate" flares up again. Wagg wasn't even attending the convention, he's not one of the theists being attacked, but he thought poorly enough of it to avoid it and post a bunch of straw men about it.
But I’m perfectly willing to argue any idea that I think is irrational and arrived at for the wrong reasons. Yup.
Awesome!

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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend

Sweden
9688 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  01:55:06   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send Dr. Mabuse an ICQ Message Send Dr. Mabuse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Well, I started trying to Google up DJ Grothe's views on this, and haven't found anything yet. But Kylie Sturgess also conflates "skepticism" with "scientific skepticism" and inappropriately contrasts the latter with "philosophical skepticism."

Unless there's some new definition of "philosophical skepticism" of which I am unaware.

She quotes Daniel Loxton:
There are two proper areas of focus for skeptics. One is the promotion of science literacy and critical thinking (often using the paranormal as a pedagogical tool). The other is consumer protection in fringe science areas — in particular, as regards paranormal claims.
How horribly self-limiting.
If I'm not mistaken, the quote from Daniel Loxton comes from his speech/writing "Where do we go from here?". I'm not sure if he read it at TAM in 2007, but he recorded it for Skepticality Podcast. If the exact quote isn't from there, then at least the sentiment is.

One of the major points of "Where do we go from here" is that a skeptic's work is never done, and there are two areas where it is important to continue the good work relentlessly. It wasn't meant to be self-limiting, but to realise that continuously giving every aspect of skepticism equal focus and energy may burn us out. To avoid a burn-out, we need to prioritize which areas where we can do most good. Doing head to head butting with theists, or relentlessly persue frauds like psychics and spoon-benders is all good and well if you have stamina for it. But it is energy-consuming. If that's too much for you, the alternative is you can sneak up behind their defences with consumer protection and science education.

I'm not defending anyone at this point, just wanted to put Kylie's quote of Danile Loxton in perspective.

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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  03:19:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions beliefs on the basis of scientific understanding. Most scientists, being scientific skeptics, test the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation using some form of the scientific method.

Religious skepticism is doubting, or holding-out for evidence, regarding faith-based claims. Religious skeptics may focus on the core tenets of religions, such as the existence of divine beings or reports of earthly miracles. A religious skeptic is not necessarily an atheist or agnostic

In philosophical skepticism, pyrrhonism is a position that refrains from making truth claims. A philosophical skeptic does not claim that truth is impossible (which would be a truth claim). The label is commonly used to describe other philosophies which appear similar to philosophical skepticism, such as academic skepticism, an ancient variant of Platonism that claimed knowledge of truth was impossible. Empiricism is a closely related, but not identical, position to philosophical skepticism. Empiricists see empiricism as a pragmatic compromise between philosophical skepticism and nomothetic science; philosophical skepticism is in turn sometimes referred to as "radical empiricism."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skepticism/
Much of epistemology has arisen either in defense of, or in opposition to, various forms of skepticism. Indeed, one could classify various theories of knowledge by their responses to skepticism. For example, rationalists could be viewed as skeptical about the possibility of empirical knowledge while not being skeptical with regard to a priori knowledge and empiricists could be seen as skeptical about the possibility of a priori knowledge but not so with regard to empirical knowledge.

To my own thinking I don't think you can be a bonafide scientific skeptic, without having done the hard work of developing a philosophy of skepticism. Taking the natural world on the assumption that it exists and that your senses have a reliable connection with that world, is not a skeptical foundation.
Edited by - chefcrsh on 11/21/2010 03:23:38
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  07:51:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

If I'm not mistaken, the quote from Daniel Loxton comes from his speech/writing "Where do we go from here?". I'm not sure if he read it at TAM in 2007, but he recorded it for Skepticality Podcast. If the exact quote isn't from there, then at least the sentiment is.
It was a bit annoying that Sturgess didn't link or otherwise provide citations for the quotes she used. Googling reveals that "Where Do We Go from Here?" seems to have been published in Skeptic, which isn't at all surprising. I'm sure I'd read it before.
One of the major points of "Where do we go from here" is that a skeptic's work is never done, and there are two areas where it is important to continue the good work relentlessly. It wasn't meant to be self-limiting, but to realise that continuously giving every aspect of skepticism equal focus and energy may burn us out. To avoid a burn-out, we need to prioritize which areas where we can do most good. Doing head to head butting with theists, or relentlessly persue frauds like psychics and spoon-benders is all good and well if you have stamina for it. But it is energy-consuming. If that's too much for you, the alternative is you can sneak up behind their defences with consumer protection and science education.
Actually, he contrasts his two "proper areas of focus" with this:
And no wonder skeptical readers and leaders want to "widen the net" to include new topics drawn from general science or (as Kurtz suggests) "biogenetic engineering, religion, economics, ethics, and politics."
And Sturgess is using the quote in that fashion - as an opposition to a broader skeptical movement which includes (properly) attacks on religion.

Loxton goes on to dismiss skeptical promotion of atheism as "an albatross for the skeptical movement. It divides us, it distracts us, and it marginalizes us." He doesn't explain why. He then says,
What unifies us is a commitment to a way of finding out, not a set of conclusions. We're here to promote methodological doubt and the other tools of scientific inquiry.
Except that he'd just gotten done with many paragraphs describing sets of conclusions that skeptical investigators are bored with re-hashing, so it rings a little hollow.
I'm not defending anyone at this point, just wanted to put Kylie's quote of Danile Loxton in perspective.
I understand, but in context, it seems like my reading last night had it right. Loxton wants the skeptical movement to focus on two areas where skepticism can be very useful, and where we need people to do that work, but the idea that religion in general (not just the faith healers and other high-profile cons) doesn't need to be similarly attacked wasn't even addressed.

Besides, since many billions of dollars go into collection plates every year, it's not like addressing religion is not a consumer protection issue. "God" is the single most-successful con job, ever.

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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  09:23:28   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dave_w said:
Sure. I, for one, am not a "scientific skeptic." Criticial thinking, logic and reason apply outside of science, I cannot and will not limit their use to only scientific subjects. For example, the fact that "god" is untestable tells me, rationally, that it's a waste of time and effort to give that concept any credence whatsoever. That's not a scientifically skeptical conclusion, but it is a skeptical conclusion.


Dismising untestable claims as nonsense is absolutely a part of the scientific method. If it weren't then we'd spend eternity pondering the literally infinite number of untestable claims it is possible to make. IPU, FSM, and gravity fairies...

Also, you should know that Kil really doesn't like PZ. In fact, I think he strongly dislikes the man.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  10:14:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude

Dismising untestable claims as nonsense is absolutely a part of the scientific method.
Not if science is defined in part by starting with only that which is testable, which is where people who want to stay away from religion begin. "Scientific skepticism" is obviously applying skeptical methods only to that which is potentially falsifiable through empirical testing. Untestable claims then fall outside of what it can possibly probe.
If it weren't then we'd spend eternity pondering the literally infinite number of untestable claims it is possible to make. IPU, FSM, and gravity fairies...
That's what Occam's Razor is actually for: figuring out the least complicated path(s) to good future results. It gets used in step 2 of the classic "scientific method" (formulate a testable hypothesis to explain your observation), but isn't synonymous with science or skepticism (or "scientific skepticism").

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  11:11:21   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I missed this comment from Eugenie Scott on Jeff Wagg's original post:
Skepticism does not equate to atheism any more than science does. Remember that when Kurtz started the original skeptics organization, CSICOP, he started the humanist organization separate from it, and it made logical sense then and still does, even if many atheists think they can co-opt the term skeptics for themselves. Skepticism is inclusive of everyone who loves science’s discoveries, appreciates the scientific method as a way of explaining nature, and who values critical thinking. We don’t need to, and shouldn’t erect ideological barriers for membership in this collective.
If any "atheists think they can co-opt the term skeptics for themselves," I'll eat my hat. What a bunch of divisive, insulting nonsense.

And Daniel Loxton chimes in, too:
As it happens, belief in dowsing rods is killing people right now. AIDS denialism, anti-vaccine hysteria, and other pseudoscientific medical beliefs have cost hundreds of thousands of lives in recent decades. Dealing with those testable pseudoscientific topics may or may not be as important or interesting as other causes, but it is important enough — and that is the task that the skeptical project was conceived to pursue.

Redefining skepticism away from its core topics may tell us what new skeptics find interesting, but it does nothing to solve the problems (however unsexy, and however niche) that skeptics organized to confront in the first place.

Moreover, we already have words and movements that mean “rationalism” and “atheism.” Why fight to give “skepticism” meanings it has not had in the past, when we have other words that already do mean those things?
It's clear that he thinks he has some ownership stake in "the skeptical project" and that sticking to its "core topics" is the only way to keep it going. Well, I reject his attempt to define "skepticism" to mean only what he thinks it should mean. He can have "the skeptical project" (which I take to mean Skeptic, CfI, and JREF), since he seems to like it. They are free to remain focused on Loxton's "proper" skeptical targets, and will be loudly applauded for their successes, as always. They are not free to try to take command of the entire skeptical movement, which has obviously outgrown the original activist groups (especially when the leaders of said groups seem to disagree).

And no atheist is trying to give "skepticism" a new meaning: they're simply (and reasonably) asking to not be belitted when they justifiably apply a broad skepticism to religion.

A later comment from Loxton on applying skepticism to religious claims:
As Carl Sagan put it, “By making pronouncements that are, even if only in principle, testable, religions, however unwillingly, enter the arena of science.”

Where this gets sticky is claims that cannot be tested, even in principle. As Sagan went on to explain,
Religious doctrine that is insulated from disproof has little reason to worry about the advance of science. The grand idea, common to many faiths, of a Creator of the Universe is one such doctrine — difficult alike to demonstrate or to dismiss.
So Loxton is explicitly conflating skepticism with science.

What should really happen, then, is that Loxton should rename his thing "the science project," since it isn't true that science and skepticism are synonymous.

And Wagg is very explicit way on down:
You can use skepticism to support your conclusion, but others can reach different conclusions. If someone concludes “There’s not enough evidence to support this belief, but it gives me comfort so I’m going to choose this” there is nothing skepticism can say about it.
So much for combating the con-men. Loxton thinks that consumer protection is one of the "proper" applications of skepticism, but apparently Wagg thinks that once you've shown there's no evidence, it is not okay to place a value judgment consistent with skepticism on those results, like "buying that thing is a waste of money." So why bother skeptically investigating this stuff in the first place? If the end of skepticism is nothing more than "there is evidence" or "there isn't evidence," then consumer protection lies outside of skepticism, too. Skepticism, in Wagg's mind, must be a collection of claims labeled "supported," "unsupported" and "waiting testing," with only science to sift between them, and nothing more. I think that's as bad for skepticism as thinking of science as nothing more than a collection of facts and theories is bad for science.

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  11:19:15   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the way, I wonder how long it'll be before they start in on the Skeptic Friends Network for being mis-named.

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  12:03:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Me:
He has made it clear that he is an atheist due to a lack of evidence for god. But since science says little about that other than “where’s the evidence?” there isn’t much a skeptic can do with it but to conclude, “there’s probably no god.” That may be a logical conclusion, but other than to become an atheist, which most of us are, what else is there from a skeptical perspective?

Dave:
There's plenty more, given religion's pernicious hold on society. We can, for example, show that since every anti-gay argument (other than "ick") boils down to a religious objection, and religions are inherently irrational, that all arguments against equal rights for homosexuals are built on vapor and wishes. They only deserve serious consideration in terms of the political power the religious have, not on any factual basis. These realizations are empowering, and there are more in all sorts of other sectors of society.

So, I’m speaking of the limitations of skepticism. There is no evidence for a god and so it becomes logically unlikely that a god exists. That goes for many claims. What you do with that after you have decided that there is no god is political and not really about any method for arriving at the conclusion that there is no god. I agree that there is a political aspect that must be fought, but that fight only comes into play after we have determined the unlikeyhood of the claim that god exists and has rules that we should abide by. And since there are Christians who also believe that these battles must be fought, it may help, but it isn’t even necessary to be a skeptic to see the danger that theocrats represent. I guess what I’m saying is that from a skeptical perspective, I think my quote stands.
Dave:
You made it sound like Kurtz' model should be followed by all skeptics. "Must" was the wrong word. Why should (in your opinion) Skepticon follow Kurtz' model?

What I think is that there is room for scientific skepticism and skepticism that questions those things that lack evidence can be both represented. If I had a problem with that, I would have had a problem with having Dawkins at the last TAM. I do think a distinction should be made over what is scientific skepticism and that broader area of skepticism which includes that which we reject for lack of evidence. Those things may both be skepticism, but people learning about skepticism should understand the there are different methods for arriving at conclusions. I would not disqualify religion but I would make it clear that conclusions about the non existence of god falls outside the methodology of scientific skepticism. That’s one of the concerns. That the take away for those who don’t know is that skepticism is but one thing and covers all areas under one banner. It’s in that way, and I have heard it myself, that a “skeptic” might say, “if you aren’t an atheist than you aren’t a skeptic.” I see that as problematic. I see that as creating unnecessarily dogmatic conclusions by conflating brands of skepticism. This is sort of a high wire act. But it should be made clear what conclusions can be drawn from skepticism and why.

Whatever our activism is, it's not drawn from a method or methods of arriving at logical conclusions. We are acting on our conclusions and not the method that brought us there. All activist are acting on their conclusions about this or that. Not all of them are arrived at logically, unfortunately.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
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Posted - 11/21/2010 :  12:25:44   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude:
Also, you should know that Kil really doesn't like PZ. In fact, I think he strongly dislikes the man.

Busted!!! Of course, I also said it earlier in this thread...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  13:35:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps a distinction should be made about what is "skepticism" and what is "skeptical rationalism." Most of the leading skeptics, and most of the organizations that work under the banner of skepticism are clearly promoting "scientific skepticism." It's therefore no wonder that they use the word "skepticism" as shorthand for "sci-skepticism." It's also pretty clear that many people here prefer what has been called "skeptical rationalism" or "rationalism" for short. I think some confusion arrises over these terms that leads to misunderstandings and claims of hypocrisy and all sort of unnecessary conflict.

I understand why the CSI must focus on scientific skepticism. It is, after all, their mission. And a concern that rationalism has the potential to erode the term "skeptic" when it's meant as scientific skepticism by one group of skeptics and "rational skepticism" by another is therefore understandable.

Just saying...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2010 :  13:39:13   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

So, I’m speaking of the limitations of skepticism. There is no evidence for a god and so it becomes logically unlikely that a god exists. That goes for many claims. What you do with that after you have decided that there is no god is political and not really about any method for arriving at the conclusion that there is no god. I agree that there is a political aspect that must be fought, but that fight only comes into play after we have determined the unlikeyhood of the claim that god exists and has rules that we should abide by. And since there are Christians who also believe that these battles must be fought, it may help, but it isn’t even necessary to be a skeptic to see the danger that theocrats represent. I guess what I’m saying is that from a skeptical perspective, I think my quote stands.
Well, we were speaking about the skeptical "movement" (including Loxton's "skeptical project"), which has never bothered to be satisfied with only saying, "there is no evidence" for pretty much anything. No skeptics' conference has ever been just a recital of which phenomena have been debunked since the last conference. People go to those things not only to learn about scientific strategies for investigating claims, but to discuss where to go from there, how to educate people, etc..

I suppose one could say, by a strict definition of skepticism, that not a shred of skeptical anything happened at the Dover trial, since once you've concluded that evolution occurs, that's the end of skepticism, but there were a bunch of fine skeptics there doing a whole bunch of skeptical activism. Genie Scott would be forced to say that since it was all legal stuff and science education, that no skepticism occurred at all, but I disagree with her definitions.

And of course, once we start applying skepticism to politics, the two become linked.
What I think is that there is room for scientific skepticism and skepticism that questions those things that lack evidence can be both represented. If I had a problem with that, I would have had a problem with having Dawkins at the last TAM. I do think a distinction should be made over what is scientific skepticism and that broader area of skepticism which includes that which we reject for lack of evidence. Those things may both be skepticism, but people learning about skepticism should understand the there are different methods for arriving at conclusions. I would not disqualify religion but I would make it clear that conclusions about the non existence of god falls outside the methodology of scientific skepticism. That’s one of the concerns.
I don't disagree with any of that.
That the take away for those who don’t know is that skepticism is but one thing and covers all areas under one banner.
"Skepticism" is the broadest possible term. "Scientific skepticism" is a sub-set.
It’s in that way, and I have heard it myself, that a “skeptic” might say, “if you aren’t an atheist than you aren’t a skeptic.” I see that as problematic.
I see it as true as soon as you append the implied "about god." People who say things like that are sloganeering, and so you need to dig at them to get at the actual meaning.
I see that as creating unnecessarily dogmatic conclusions by conflating brands of skepticism.
I don't see any evidence that even a large minority of atheist skeptics hold that conclusion dogmatically. Nor do I see any evidence that anyone comes to that conclusion by conflating different kinds of skepticism. In fact, the problem is the opposite of that, because what's happened is that Wagg wants "skepticism" to mean only "scientific skepticism," so he is the one doing the conflating.
This is sort of a high wire act. But it should be made clear what conclusions can be drawn from skepticism and why.
And it is clear, once we get away from people who insist that "skepticism" only means (and only can mean) "scientific skepticism."
Whatever our activism is, it's not drawn from a method or methods of arriving at logical conclusions. We are acting on our conclusions and not the method that brought us there.
That's news to me. Yes, skepticism can't tell me that people should be more free and less harmed, but my activism isn't drawn from that alone. It's drawn from knowledge of my own abilities and resources, coupled with the solid evidence of harm currently taking place, all tied together with logic and reason. What direction should be taken to reach which goal is definitely something to which skepticism applies.
All activist are acting on their conclusions about this or that. Not all of them are arrived at logically, unfortunately.
QFT, that.

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