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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  14:36:11   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Ebone4rock

What's happening is that people are arguing semantics now. We are really on the same side, no need for this division.
Someone in some comment somewhere likened this mess to the old bikers who go to Daytona, huddle amongst themselves and bitch about how the people who show up these days aren't "real" bikers, meanwhile the other 250,000 people have a lot of fun.
Maybe they can regulate how many talks are on specific topics at the conventions?
No, there is no central skeptics' governing body which can dictate such regulations or enforce them.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  14:44:37   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ebone said:
What's happening is that people are arguing semantics now. We are really on the same side, no need for this division.


The issue is that some people want to exclude certain tactics and criticism of specific topics. The ones who want to exclude the use of harsh criticism, ridicule, and insult are often hypocritical since they harshly criticise, ridicule, and insult those of us who do. So fuck them. The ones who want to create a big exception for religion are just simply deluded. Religion is the largest purveyor of nonsense and woo in the known universe, and it should be excluded from critical examination? WTF!?

So it's about more than just semantics, though semantics do come into it with the whole trying to define what kind of skeptic you are and arguing about which kind is better to be, I guess.


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular

USA
894 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  14:48:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Ebone4rock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Ebone4rock

What's happening is that people are arguing semantics now. We are really on the same side, no need for this division.
Someone in some comment somewhere likened this mess to the old bikers who go to Daytona, huddle amongst themselves and bitch about how the people who show up these days aren't "real" bikers, meanwhile the other 250,000 people have a lot of fun.
Maybe they can regulate how many talks are on specific topics at the conventions?
No, there is no central skeptics' governing body which can dictate such regulations or enforce them.


I think the biker analogy is perfect.

Well so much for the regulate the number of talks idea.

Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring
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chefcrsh
Skeptic Friend

Hong Kong
380 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  16:48:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send chefcrsh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dude
The issue is that some people want to exclude certain tactics and criticism of specific topics. The ones who want to exclude the use of harsh criticism, ridicule, and insult are often hypocritical since they harshly criticise, ridicule, and insult those of us who do.


Problem is they are on both sides of the issue.
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  17:52:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ophelia Benson chimes in.

And Rey Fox thinks that skepticism and atheism should be considered to be the same thing because he doesn't want atheism to include people who are atheists for non-skeptical reasons (in his words, "because they hate going to church or want to piss off their parents or think it will get them laid"). At first, I thought he was making a funny, but he argued for it more.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  18:37:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Originally posted by Kil

Thoughts?
Yeah. I've never heard any skeptic say anything like Lippard's "I don't believe in X because I'm a skeptic, and we don't believe in such things." Maybe he has. I didn't know it was such a big concern.
I can't tell you how many times I have had an atheist say to me that you can't be a skeptic and not be an atheist. I think that's what Lippard was saying. But there was a lot more to what he wrote than what you commented on.

Whatever...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  18:46:18   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dude:
The issue is that some people want to exclude certain tactics and criticism of specific topics. The ones who want to exclude the use of harsh criticism, ridicule, and insult are often hypocritical since they harshly criticise, ridicule, and insult those of us who do.

So, Jeff suggesting that Skepticon should be more correctly called Atheistcon (whether he is right or wrong about that) is what you have described above? And that's what he did in his blog? Interesting take...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  19:11:48   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

I can't tell you how many times I have had an atheist say to me that you can't be a skeptic and not be an atheist. I think that's what Lippard was saying.
Well, that was certainly a very screwed up way to say it.
But there was a lot more to what he wrote than what you commented on.
And I don't disagree with most of what he said.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  19:13:07   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sam Ogden was there:
When I attend these conferences, I don’t always know right away if I’m going to make a return trip, but in this case, I can say that if the organizers do it again next year, I will be in attendance.

Now, I understand that there has been some sniping among a few members of the skeptical community over what Skepticon should rightly be named. Apparently, some think the conference is more of an atheist event, and therefore should not have the implication that it is skepticism-specific included in its name. It seems the worry is that attendees hoping to hear presentations about UFOs or homeopathy or psychics or what have you might be disenchanted with a proliferation of topics focusing on atheism.

All I’ll say about this is, right now, I can’t think of anything I care less about.

Not that I don’t think conveying the right identity or that deploying accurate marketing into the public domain are important. They are. I just think this particular case is something of a non-issue. For many, skepticism and rational inquiry inform atheism, and even if you address only that dynamic at an event, it would still be worthy of being called a skeptic event. And Skepticon did that very thing in good measure. Plus there were presentations, like Amanda Marcotte’s, that dealt with thinking rationally in feminism, and Joe Nickell’s, that dealt solely with investigating claims. The talks would have easily fit in at any skeptic event.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  19:27:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Dave W.

Ophelia Benson chimes in.

And Rey Fox thinks that skepticism and atheism should be considered to be the same thing because he doesn't want atheism to include people who are atheists for non-skeptical reasons (in his words, "because they hate going to church or want to piss off their parents or think it will get them laid"). At first, I thought he was making a funny, but he argued for it more.

And skeptifem cuts right to the chase...



I'm sorry. But whether you agree with Jeff or not, he doesn't deserve this kind of shit. He did much of the heavy lifting over at the JREF. He put together the last several TAM's. He knows a little something about skeptic conventions. And there were always prominent atheists doing talks and workshops at the TAM's I have attended. (The last 5). The keynote at the last one was Richard Dawkins. Myers was not only a speaker at TAM but he was a featured speaker on the Galapagos cruse. Jeff helped to put that stuff together.

Will Myers step in and correct this persons character assassination of Jeff? Nope. But he should, even if he doesn't agree with Jeff.

And that's exactly one of my problems with Myers.

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  19:38:34   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems Lippard is worried that as soon as we start making "rules" we risk turning skepticism into a club, when skepticism is supposed to be more about the process. I get that. But I don't necessarily agree.

I think we should say that skepticism does lead to certain conclusions, in the manner that all conclusions are understood to be tentative, based upon the best currently available evidence, and always open to revision. It's the standard that science uses, where facts are established and built upon, and it's produced some pretty impressive results. I don't understand those who would like to see skepticism remain an endless treadmill of open-minded investigations that says we can't conclude anything from a negative result. Bullshit. Absence of evidence is good enough evidence of absence. Enough to make a tentative judgment call, at least. And we can say that without alienating anyone. Look at churches. Do you know what would happen if they kicked out every member who didn't follow their rules? Sheeit.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  19:55:32   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil

And skeptifem cuts right to the chase...
I saw that, and realized it had nothing to do with what we're talking about here.
Will Myers step in and correct this persons character assassination of Jeff? Nope. But he should, even if he doesn't agree with Jeff.
PZ recently said that he doesn't have time to properly moderate his blog, and so expects his commenters to police and defend themselves. Since he won't do what you want, perhaps you should go ask skeptifem yourself for evidence for her accusations or otherwise defend Wagg from her slurs. Of course, I'm sure Wagg is perfectly capable of defending himself, too.

Nine times out of ten, I can't even log in to leave a comment over there, so I don't bother to try any more.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  20:01:54   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
Will Myers step in and correct this persons character assassination of Jeff? Nope. But he should, even if he doesn't agree with Jeff.

And that's exactly one of my problems with Myers.
What makes you think he's even aware of the comment? Recently he wrote this about the comments on his blog:
I need you all to take a moment and see things from my perspective. I don't read the comments in detail; I can't. I skim through them.
I don't think PZ has enough time in his day to read every single comment that appears on his blog. He's said before he views the comment section as a sort of free speech zone. I don't think you can hold PZ responsible for what other people actually say. Chris Mooney was criticized for writing an article which took issue with the language and tone of something "from PZ's blog," misleading many readers into thinking it was something PZ had written, and not just the angry ejaculations of a random commenter among hundreds as it later turned out to be.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
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Kil
Evil Skeptic

USA
13477 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  20:16:51   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Kil's Homepage  Send Kil an AOL message  Send Kil a Yahoo! Message Send Kil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, as you know, one of the worries is that if conventions like Skepticon are weighted too heavily toward skepticism of religion, or are flat out anti-religion, and not called an atheist convention, that people will start thinking of skepticism as something that's primarily about promoting atheism. That the words will become linked and there will be a misunderstanding about what skepticism is actually about.

And now for the local news:

Atheists, agnostics gather for convention in Springfield MO

So the media has decided what this convention is about and now the listeners pretty much know what they need to know about skepticism. After all, they heard it on the news.

Now, in all fairness, the media is often full of crap. But isn't this broadcast a bit of evidence that some of the worries, like the one that Jeff expressed, just might have some merit?

Edited to add: I just checked. KY3 is an NBC affiliate. I was wondering if it was some religious channel...


As for PZ not responding to that person, okay. I get that...

Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.

Why not question something for a change?

Genetic Literacy Project
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard

USA
4574 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2010 :  21:01:08   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send H. Humbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Kil
Now, in all fairness, the media is often full of crap. But isn't this broadcast a bit of evidence that some of the worries, like the one that Jeff expressed, just might have some merit?
Sure, but I think the best strategy for countering that type of scare tactic journalism is to work to normalize atheism, not act like it's the dark and scary underbelly of the skeptic movement that has to be shoved into the closet whenever company comes over. The media often portrayed homosexuals as aggressive malcontents, but look how far they've come toward mainstream acceptance. I think it's great to expose as many people as possible to the message that there's no more evidence for a god than there is for jinns or leprechauns. You want to make a real change in the world? That's the message with the potential for the greatest good. I don't understand this timidity when it comes to taking on religion. It's not like they can burn us at the stake anymore.


"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman

"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie
Edited by - H. Humbert on 11/22/2010 21:03:41
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