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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2010 : 13:12:59 [Permalink]
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I have a question to ask any & all who use the term "new atheist:" What exactly, is a "new" atheist and how might this sort of specimen differ from us dirty, old atheists?
If I don't get an acceptable answer soon, I'll be forced to call hyperbolic bullshit on a lot of people, many or most of whom richly deserve it anyway.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2010 : 13:30:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I have a question to ask any & all who use the term "new atheist:" What exactly, is a "new" atheist and how might this sort of specimen differ from us dirty, old atheists?
If I don't get an acceptable answer soon, I'll be forced to call hyperbolic bullshit on a lot of people, many or most of whom richly deserve it anyway. |
My own personal take on "new atheism" is that it's a synthesis of atheism and skepticism. As Kil has pointed out, not all atheists are skeptics. Atheism is merely a lack of a belief in gods, and as such atheism is merely a statement of personal belief. New Atheism is more of a world view that grounds atheism upon a foundation of rational inquiry and skepticism, and actively asserts that faith is an invalid epistemology.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 13:36:57 [Permalink]
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Just a thought which has nothing to do with the last several posts. Am I the only one who hates this thread? This shit needs to be discussed, but good grief it's divisive because it isn't just a discussion about the topic of this thread, but it also goes to each one of our core beliefs about what's important and what is this and what is that. It's so much easier to debate with some crank than it is to debate with each other over issues of import to our community and how we each personally define our skepticism and what we should be doing with it. As I said at the end of my first post in this thread: And now here it comes... I was hoping this wouldn't come up here because I'm pretty sure about what will come next. And it will be no picnic... No shit, eh?
But if we want to remain relevant, if we want SFN to mean anything beyond being a political bitch board or a place to eviscerate people who are pushing nonsense, we must do this sort of thing from time to time, I guess. I don't know about everyone else here, but for me this has been a painful process. I suppose, maybe, a part of that is because I'm active in the larger community of skeptics. But then again, maybe not. I dunno. But damn.
All I can ask is that people really pay attention to what's being said and try and avoid knee-jerk reactions. I'm not saying that's what we are all doing, but the temptation is strong and I know at least a couple of times I have made that mistake. I'd like to think that we're not a bunch of nit-wits and that we can still disagree with the knowledge that most of us bring a reasonable amount of intelligence to the table and that even in our disagreements we have earned each others respect.
I don't know where all of this is going. But I kinda hope it gets there soon even though I doubt that it will...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 15:32:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Just a thought which has nothing to do with the last several posts. Am I the only one who hates this thread? This shit needs to be discussed, but good grief it's divisive because it isn't just a discussion about the topic of this thread, but it also goes to each one of our core beliefs about what's important and what is this and what is that. It's so much easier to debate with some crank than it is to debate with each other over issues of import to our community and how we each personally define our skepticism and what we should be doing with it. As I said at the end of my first post in this thread: And now here it comes... I was hoping this wouldn't come up here because I'm pretty sure about what will come next. And it will be no picnic... No shit, eh?
But if we want to remain relevant, if we want SFN to mean anything beyond being a political bitch board or a place to eviscerate people who are pushing nonsense, we must do this sort of thing from time to time, I guess. I don't know about everyone else here, but for me this has been a painful process. I suppose, maybe, a part of that is because I'm active in the larger community of skeptics. But then again, maybe not. I dunno. But damn.
All I can ask is that people really pay attention to what's being said and try and avoid knee-jerk reactions. I'm not saying that's what we are all doing, but the temptation is strong and I know at least a couple of times I have made that mistake. I'd like to think that we're not a bunch of nit-wits and that we can still disagree with the knowledge that most of us bring a reasonable amount of intelligence to the table and that even in our disagreements we have earned each others respect.
I don't know where all of this is going. But I kinda hope it gets there soon even though I doubt that it will...
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This argument is a combination of several related arguments. DBAD, accomodationism, and what is/isn't fair game for skepticism. It turned ugle well before it made the pages of these forums too.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 15:33:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I have a question to ask any & all who use the term "new atheist:" What exactly, is a "new" atheist and how might this sort of specimen differ from us dirty, old atheists?
If I don't get an acceptable answer soon, I'll be forced to call hyperbolic bullshit on a lot of people, many or most of whom richly deserve it anyway.
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I agree with you Filthy. To me when I hear "new atheist" the first thing that comes to my head is someone who recently became an atheist. I have always been an atheist and have always known I was an atheist although until the last couple of years I didn't realize that I was an atheist because I was a skeptic.(I'm not sure how much sense that makes  ) I have only recently started to call myself a skeptic...so maybe that means I'm a "new skeptic".....or as Kil would probably say.."nOOb"
I do understand that "new atheist" seems to be a term used by the media to describe the latest batch of vocal atheists (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, among others).
I hate it. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 15:40:42 [Permalink]
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Dr. Mabuse.......
| The texts in those boxes above, did you write those? (Nudge nudge wink wink...) |
Yes.
What in the hell kind of a grudge are you bearing,Mabuse? First it's pompous ass, next it's nudge, wink about (I guess) implied plagiarism. To the best of my knowledge I haven't insulted you or your contributions here for a long time. Nor do I intend to. Is it that you want to increase the level of insult, degradation, totally gratuitous personal attacks, name calling and similar pre-pubescent behavior that is constantly increasing in pitch and frequency here at SFN? I cannot imagine why.
I have never felt that you cut and pasted any of your contributions to these forums, why do you accuse me of it? Some of your writing appears awkward to me , but I understand that there is a language barrier and let it go.
If you want a childish shouting match with me, you're going to have to look elsewhere. I have no quarrel, personal or opinion oriented with you or your contributions, and I am not going to return this unwarranted attack - for there is far too much senselessly desultory name-calling and deprecation going on at this site. As chefcrsh pointed out in this thread, SFN is rapidly becoming just a very unpleasant cesspool of insult exchange and it does make one wonder what the point is in spending any time here.
I believe that everyone here, especially management, of which you seem to be some part, could benefit greatly by listening more carefully to Kil's pleas to lower the personal attack level. It certainly isn't what he wants to see as one of the founders and owners of SFN. If I am wrong, Kil, tell me so and I will apologize for presumption. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 15:41:37 [Permalink]
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Dude:
This argument is a combination of several related arguments. DBAD, accomodationism, and what is/isn't fair game for skepticism. It turned ugle well before it made the pages of these forums too. |
I know.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 15:45:24 [Permalink]
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He was bitching about your formatting Bill. When you put shit in the quote box it usually indicates you are, well, quoting it from somewhere else. Mostly this requires attribution.
It seemed pretty obvious to me that the words in the quote boxes were yours, but only because you have posted frequently here. I can see how others might be confused though, and so should you.
Now sit down and drink a glass of that expensive whiskey before you pop a blood vessel you can't live without!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 16:02:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
Originally posted by filthy
I have a question to ask any & all who use the term "new atheist:" What exactly, is a "new" atheist and how might this sort of specimen differ from us dirty, old atheists?
If I don't get an acceptable answer soon, I'll be forced to call hyperbolic bullshit on a lot of people, many or most of whom richly deserve it anyway. |
My own personal take on "new atheism" is that it's a synthesis of atheism and skepticism. As Kil has pointed out, not all atheists are skeptics. Atheism is merely a lack of a belief in gods, and as such atheism is merely a statement of personal belief. New Atheism is more of a world view that grounds atheism upon a foundation of rational inquiry and skepticism, and actively asserts that faith is an invalid epistemology.
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That seems reasonable enough, although it might be pointed out that atheism is more likely than not to be the result of skepticism. It might be an unconscious skepticism, if such exists, but skepticism nevertheless. Thanks!
Hey Kil, I hate this thread too! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2010 : 18:59:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by bngbuck
Dr. Mabuse.......
| The texts in those boxes above, did you write those? (Nudge nudge wink wink...) |
Yes. |
Thank you. That was what I wanted to know.
Why? Because usually when text is surrounded by those little boxes, it usually implies those are quotes of some kind. I know your boxes were made by the box-tag and not the quote-tag, but those were still marking text, and setting then apart (for special consideration) from the rest of what you wrote.
Since I couldn't read anything explicitly suggesting that the content of the boxes were yours or someone elses, I was thinking that you might have forgotten to name the source (your or someone elses).
It wasn't meant as an accusation of plagiarism. I just didn't know, was curious where it came from, and wanted to remind you that sourcing is good form. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2010 : 02:22:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I have a question to ask any & all who use the term "new atheist:" What exactly, is a "new" atheist and how might this sort of specimen differ from us dirty, old atheists?
If I don't get an acceptable answer soon, I'll be forced to call hyperbolic bullshit on a lot of people, many or most of whom richly deserve it anyway.
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As far as I can tell, the "new" atheists are not different in beliefs from the old. They're just more confrontational about it. The "old" atheists would have discussions amongst each other in back-rooms, do not do too many media performances, did not compare Christianity with a mental disease and if they did, definitely did not write bestsellers on their thoughts.
The "new" atheists do. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2010 : 04:16:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by tomk80
Originally posted by filthy
I have a question to ask any & all who use the term "new atheist:" What exactly, is a "new" atheist and how might this sort of specimen differ from us dirty, old atheists?
If I don't get an acceptable answer soon, I'll be forced to call hyperbolic bullshit on a lot of people, many or most of whom richly deserve it anyway.
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As far as I can tell, the "new" atheists are not different in beliefs from the old. They're just more confrontational about it. The "old" atheists would have discussions amongst each other in back-rooms, do not do too many media performances, did not compare Christianity with a mental disease and if they did, definitely did not write bestsellers on their thoughts.
The "new" atheists do.
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"How did Jesus walk on water?
Shit floats!"
I first heard that one 'way back in the '50s and wondered why anyone would bother to make such a silly thing up.
An alternate definition, then. It's the same, old atheist but more in public view. That's probably something else we can blame on the social "revolutions" of the '60s and '70s. That's about the time when some people began letting go of traditions, and others outside of the hippie movement followed suit, albeit in a less colorful way. And education & science was rapidly becoming much more comprehensive.
Being curious, I've looked up a list of atheist authors. It doesn't go back as far as I'd like, but it hits the high spots of the early, twentieth century. Of course, these didn't write much about atheism per se, but they were well known and for the most part, sold well.
There were earlier, famous atheists such as Oscar Wilde and Mark Twain who are still relevant today.
My favorite ancient atheist was Charles Darwin.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/25/2010 08:19:45 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2010 : 06:41:08 [Permalink]
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Filthy, you'll need to adjust your link...
List of atheists (authors)
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 11/25/2010 06:41:39 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2010 : 08:28:09 [Permalink]
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I tried to run just the authors list section, but I guess Wiki didn't like that. Dunno why; it's worked before. Fixed now.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 11/25/2010 08:31:35 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2010 : 12:43:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
I tried to run just the authors list section, but I guess Wiki didn't like that. Dunno why; it's worked before. Fixed now.
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It's the paranthesis. The forum software consider them alien characters, and filter them out. It's part of the software security against hackers, could potentially breach the our SQL-server.
It's in my HOWTO fix exotic characters in URL-links, in the Q & A section. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Too many atheists?
