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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 01/18/2003 : 19:54:40 [Permalink]
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Doomar, how many Jews have been killed apparently because they don't believe JC is the prophecied Messiah? Honestly, do you have any arguments that haven't been dealt with billions of times just since the popular advent of the internet?
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 20:12:50 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by PhDreamer
Doomar, how many Jews have been killed apparently because they don't believe JC is the prophecied Messiah? Honestly, do you have any arguments that haven't been dealt with billions of times just since the popular advent of the internet?
The superficiality of your argument betrays your ignorance in history. Many of the martyrs were Jews, Dr., but race is not the issue, rather faith in Christ. The Christians who were killed by the Emporers, by the pope, and today those killed by moslem rebels and atheistic communists were killed for not denying there faith in Christ, not because of their race. They had a choice to live or die given to them in most cases (consider the recent case of a high school girl in Columbine, Co who was asked by her executioner if she still believed..when she replied yes, he killed her). Perhaps you were unaware of this crucial fact of choice. That very choice is evidence of the reality of their belief in a real Savior, whom they believe Christ to be. Were Christ not real and historical as you suggest, such things would not have occurred nor be occurring this very day in our generation. You may debate their faith and the reason for it, but to debate the actual existence of Christ and the writings in the New Testament is to spit into the wind. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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Doomar
SFN Regular
USA
714 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 20:19:53 [Permalink]
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What do any of the things you babbled have to do with an historic Jesus? Nobody believes in other gods today, and have for longer than Christianity? No one else died for their religions?
If you can't see any correlation in thousands of witnesses to the existence of Jesus, giving testimony at the cost of their lives (they could have lived if they had denied Jesus) then I guess the clouds in the sky before it rains is just a coincidence, too. |
Mark 10:27 (NKJV) 27But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
www.pastorsb.com.htm |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 20:28:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
The superficiality of your argument betrays your ignorance in history. Many of the martyrs were Jews, Dr., but race is not the issue, rather faith in Christ.
First, I'm not a doctor. It's just a not-particularly-clever nickname related to my desire to return to school.
Second, I can't believe you are actually attempting to minimalise the deaths of the Jews by falsely referring to Judaism as a "race"!
quote:
The Christians who were killed by the Emporers, by the pope, and today those killed by moslem rebels and atheistic communists were killed for not denying there faith in Christ, not because of their race. They had a choice to live or die given to them in most cases (consider the recent case of a high school girl in Columbine, Co who was asked by her executioner if she still believed..when she replied yes, he killed her).
Sir, I insist you do your own fucking homework henceforth.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/30/bernall/print.html
[snip additional drivel]
Your entire post is a perversion of history. You appear to have a persecution complex. Seek help.
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I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
-Agent Smith |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 21:29:47 [Permalink]
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First I am a Doctor.
If you can't see any correlation in thousands of witnesses to the existence of Jesus,
Doorman you are obscene. There are no witnesses to the existence of Jesus. Not one. No one saw him or wrote about him or wrote to him or received letters from him. No one.
giving testimony at the cost of their lives (they could have lived if they had denied Jesus)
And the tens of thousands of Pagans that the Roman Christians put to death; what about them. Read your Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Does that mean Zeus is real?
Your girl at Columbine is nothing but a Christian lie, exploiting the poor dead child to serve your lying ends. Shame on you, you are disgusting.
And to top it all off you even attack the Catholics. You aren't a Christian after all, only a bigot.
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"A thing is not necessarily true just because someone dies for it" --Oscar Wilde
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2003 : 23:04:23 [Permalink]
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Slater:Doorman you are obscene. There are no witnesses to the existence of Jesus. Not one. No one saw him or wrote about
him or wrote to him or received letters from him. No one. What??? You now have proof that "No one saw him or wrote about him"? Please show the rest of us this history making evidence!!! |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2003 : 07:07:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
What??? You now have proof that "No one saw him or wrote about him"? Please show the rest of us this history making evidence!!!
Come on DA, just when you were starting to argue honestly, you come out with this silliness. Show us verifiable first-hand testimony. The very best you can do is the pretentious apologetcs from some guy with hallucinations on the road to Damascus. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2003 : 07:18:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Doomar
If you can't see any correlation in thousands of witnesses to the existence of Jesus, giving testimony at the cost of their lives ...
Doomar, are you using the term 'witness' as in attest or as in observed? If the former, it's meaningless as evidence. If the latter, I'd be very interested in seeing you substantiate the claim. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2003 : 19:12:04 [Permalink]
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CA: quote:
Come on DA, just when you were starting to argue honestly, you come out with this silliness. Show us verifiable
first-hand testimony. The very best you can do is the pretentious apologetcs from some guy with hallucinations on the
road to Damascus.
For the record I always "argue honestly" .Secondly, Slater made a positive affirmation stating:There are no witnesses to the existence of Jesus. Not one. No one saw him or wrote about
him or wrote to him or received letters from him. No one. I don't see how you can call it "silliness" to ask him to back up his claim with proof or retract his statement.Thrid, you still haven't answered my previous question concerning how the "political" pressures present in the works Josephus/Philostratus still don't impinge their historical accuracy;how do you claim that any alleged "political" pressures in the NT do?  |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 01/20/2003 19:13:23 |
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2003 : 19:22:56 [Permalink]
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| In 2000 years the church has produced no evidence that Jesus existed. No one saw him or they would be remembered. He wrote to no one or the notes would have been saved. There are no records of him existing. Are you having memory problems, we've gone over this a hundered times? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2003 : 20:38:45 [Permalink]
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Slater: quote:
In 2000 years the church has produced no evidence that Jesus existed. No one saw him or they would be remembered.
He wrote to no one or the notes would have been saved. There are no records of him existing. Are you having memory
problems, we've gone over this a hundered times?
I'm afraid tis you who not only has a problem with "memory" but with logicalso.Now you can claim till the cows come home all you want that "the church has produced no evidence that Jesus existed",and no doubt some fools will belive your claim,however to more openminded scholars THE CHURCH itself is evidence that its founder existed.Would you also claim that Buddah didn't exist? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 04:30:46 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
..., you still haven't answered my previous question concerning how the "political" pressures present in the works Josephus/Philostratus still don't impinge their historical accuracy;how do you claim that any alleged "political" pressures in the NT do?
While I cannot speak to Philostratus, I would suggest that you are overly naive (read ignorant) when it comes to Josephus. See, for example: quote:
According to Josephus the death of the 960 inhabitants of Masada and the destruction of the palace and the possessions were the premeditated acts of all the people acting in unison. But the archaeological remains cannot be reconciled with this view. ...
Josephus needs no apology for these inventions and embellishments since practically all the historians of antiquity did such things. But if an apology were demanded, Josephus could respond that his narrative required inventiveness. ...
- see Masada: Literary Tradition, Archaeological Remains, and the Credibility of Josephus
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For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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ConsequentAtheist
SFN Regular
641 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 04:47:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by darwin alogos
... to more openminded scholars THE CHURCH itself is evidence that its founder existed.
Absurd. No doubt the Temple of Apollo serves as evidence for Apollo and the Shiva Stalams confims Shiva. "THE CHURCH itself is evidence" of a priesthood only, as is true of every church.
Show us the verifiable fist-hand testimony. |
For the philosophical naturalist, the rejection of supernaturalism is a case of "death by a thousand cuts." -- Barbara Forrest, Ph.D. |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 20:52:13 [Permalink]
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To CA, I think you just proved my point because in spite of this error by Joe,he still considered a very good historical source.Even the article you referenced it states: quote:
The final
books of the Jewish War. Silva, no doubt, could appreciate rhetorical
historiography as much as any educated Roman, but his presence in Rome
must have been an incentive for Josephus to restrain his imagination and tell
the truth. Of course, it was also an incentive to tilt the narrative in the
Romans' favour, but Josephus did not have to tilt it very far to make the
Romans look good since, as archaeology demonstrates, Silva did his work
efficiently and expertly...
Josephus did, however, restrain his imagination when writing the Masada
narrative. In stark contrast to his descriptions of the falls of Jotapata,
.This was and is my point both Josephus and Philostratus are considered reliable sources even with these errors,and the political pressures put upon them (besides Philo's error on quoting Apollonius of Rhodes,he was "commissioned by the Empress Julia Domna" to write about Apollonius as a "pagan-christ").Yet none the less, they are for the most part to be trusted.Now my question to you is the writers of the NT are not guilty of such gross error and you claim they were under "political pressures" (which for the sake of the argument I'll grant) but how can you reject their writings when scholars still accept Philo/Joe even in spite of the above errors and pressures? |
To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
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darwin alogos
SFN Regular
USA
532 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2003 : 23:09:26 [Permalink]
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CA:Absurd. No doubt the Temple of Apollo serves as evidence for Apollo and the Shiva Stalams confims Shiva. "THE
CHURCH itself is evidence" of a priesthood only, as is true of every church. I think Imfamous already answered that objection (DJRE),but I'm not talking about a building but a movement.I think anyone would be in their epistemic rights to conclude that from a movement that started in Palestine (circa 33AD) and spread across the then Roman Empire by the end of the century must have been started by SOMEBODY! (see book of Acts). quote:
Show us the verifiable fist-hand testimony.
I already have the NT.(ed.for ref's:http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=2670) quote:
About the Book
The widespread perception of a decisive "parting of the ways" between Christianity and Judaism after the
destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. has distorted our understanding of the following decades and centuries of
Jewish and Christian history. We are left with the impression that hostile polemic or mutual avoidance between
Christians and Jews was the order of the day.
In the Shadow of the Temple offers a new perspective on the development of the early church in its practice (e.g.,
worship, baptism and Eucarist) and doctrine (e.g., Scripture, Christology, peumatology). Oskar Skarsaune begins
by tracing the story of second temple Judaism from the crisis of the Jewish encounter with Hellenism in the
second century B.C. through the diverse Judaisms of the first century A.D. Then, from the time of Jesus and the
origins of the church up to the Constantinian revolution of the early fourth century A.D, Skarsaune offers us
fascinating snapshots and analyses of the interactions, the arguments and the shaping influences of Judaism on
the life, c
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To deny logic you must use it.To deny Jesus Existed you must throw away all your knowledge of the ancient world. To deny ID
you must refute all analogical reasoning. So the question is why deny? |
| Edited by - darwin alogos on 02/04/2003 21:38:25 |
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