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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 02/02/2011 : 18:43:30 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
Now its clear that the Obama administration will not comply with the injunction which seems to me to be lawlessness.
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It worked for the Bush/Cheney administration, so what's to bitch about? Tit-for-tat.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 19:03:24 [Permalink]
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By the way Robb. There is also this:
Fla. judge strikes down Obama health care overhaul
| The final step will almost certainly be the U.S. Supreme Court. Two other federal judges have already upheld the law and a federal judge in Virginia ruled the insurance mandate unconstitutional but stopped short of voiding the entire thing. |
So there is disagreement over the law among federal judges. The law will probably go to the Supreme Court for a final ruling.
So I don’t understand how you can use a term like “lawlessness” when two judges upheld the law, and another judge didn’t void the whole thing, which was a very nasty thing to do by Judge Vinson.
Really.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 19:09:58 [Permalink]
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Couple of pedantic points:Originally posted by Kil
Dave is right. A single payer system is the right way to go. |
"Single payer" refers only to the method of funding. When most people hear the term, they think of a national insurance program that pays out to still-private health care providers. I, on the other hand, want almost the entire industry to be nationalized, and health insurance to be a thing of the past.| I know Dave likes to place most of the blame on the blue dogs. |
Eh, the Republican response was to be expected, harping on it seems boring. There's plenty of blame to be laid at Obama's feet for failing to actually lead the party, and get all of the Democratic votes. But then, I'm against party members voting on party lines in the first place. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 19:27:35 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Couple of pedantic points:Originally posted by Kil
Dave is right. A single payer system is the right way to go. |
"Single payer" refers only to the method of funding. When most people hear the term, they think of a national insurance program that pays out to still-private health care providers. I, on the other hand, want almost the entire industry to be nationalized, and health insurance to be a thing of the past.| I know Dave likes to place most of the blame on the blue dogs. |
Eh, the Republican response was to be expected, harping on it seems boring. There's plenty of blame to be laid at Obama's feet for failing to actually lead the party, and get all of the Democratic votes. But then, I'm against party members voting on party lines in the first place.
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Yes and pretty much...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 20:28:00 [Permalink]
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I hope you won't mind me removing the lengthy legal footnotes...
Originally posted by Robb
(5) Injunction
The last issue to be resolved is the plaintiffs’ request for injunctive relief
enjoining implementation of the Act, which can be disposed of very quickly.
Injunctive relief is an “extraordinary” and “drastic” remedy. It is even more so when the party to be enjoined is the
federal government, for there is a long-standing presumption “that officials of the Executive Branch will adhere to the law as declared by the court. As a result, the declaratory judgment is the functional equivalent of an injunction.”
There is no reason to conclude that this presumption should not apply here. Thus, the award of declaratory relief is adequate and separate injunctive relief is not necessary. |
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And since it was not necessary to issue a separate injunction, the court didn't do so.
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“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
| Edited by - podcat on 02/02/2011 20:30:55 |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 21:32:16 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Yay for the good guys! Down with ObamaCare!!!
And you wonder why I think the Republican Party is heartless. Sure this is anecdotal. But there are real repercussions attached to the kind of action Wisconsin is taking. But hey... Wrong is wrong, right?
This action by Wisconsin couldn't have waited until the plan worked its way though the courts, and altered if necessary, right? And you know why they didn't wait? POLIFUCKINGTICS!!! You like it Robb. They're playing the song for you. We wouldn't want Wisconsin to suffer "lawlessness" by allowing the implementation of any provision in RebubliCare ummm, ObamaCare, now would we? But then, the people who are negatively effected by a ruling that covers every single part of the plan, including parts that no one in their right mind would object to, with the exception of insurance companies and their lap dogs of course, are just abstractions to the judge and the politicians, aren't they?
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It was the dems that put the mandate to buy healthcare in the bill. You are not forced to use Medicare of Medicade. If they want to tax me for it then fine, but the mandate is tyranny.
Keep pushing that the republicans were once for this, I don't care. I did not ever support this plan.
Well I think it is heartless to have peoples health care that is working for them taken away because insurers drop them or raise rates by great margins when the uninsured can be insured by other means. I think its heartless to have people wait 3 years for their full benefits to kick in when there are plans to fix the uninsured right now. I think it is heartless to strap our childen with an insurmountable debt because of the health care bill. I think it is heartless to give teenagers condoms and not tell them all of the ramifications of having sex when they are teenagers. I will say again conservatives are not evil, they want people covered as well, they just think a different way is better. Why won't the dems discuss any of the republican ideas? |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 21:38:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
By the way Robb. There is also this:
Fla. judge strikes down Obama health care overhaul
| The final step will almost certainly be the U.S. Supreme Court. Two other federal judges have already upheld the law and a federal judge in Virginia ruled the insurance mandate unconstitutional but stopped short of voiding the entire thing. |
So there is disagreement over the law among federal judges. The law will probably go to the Supreme Court for a final ruling.
So I don’t understand how you can use a term like “lawlessness” when two judges upheld the law, and another judge didn’t void the whole thing, which was a very nasty thing to do by Judge Vinson.
Really.
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It does not matter that other judges did not, the fact is this one did. Its not a contest to see if one side gets more rulings or not. And there you go demonizing people that disagree with you. |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2011 : 22:20:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Robb
You are not forced to use Medicare of Medicade. If they want to tax me for it then fine, but the mandate is tyranny. |
Wait... what? It's okay with you that the government demands taxes for services you might never use, but it's "tyranny" for the government to demand that you directly pay for services you might never use? That makes no sense at all. Either Medicare and Medicaid are also "tyranny," or the individual mandate is not. You can't have it both ways.
Note that I think that Medicare, Medicaid and the individual mandate are all stupid, but that doesn't equate to tyranny. All three were properly debated by Congress and passed by the appropriate majorities. Really, if you think that any of them are "tyranny," then you must think that our Constitution creates tyranny.| Keep pushing that the republicans were once for this, I don't care. I did not ever support this plan. |
But what you keep complaining about is that the Republicans have some sort of better solution. They offered the current solution, less than two decades ago. Were you arguing, then, that the solution is "tyranny?"| Well I think it is heartless to have peoples health care that is working for them taken away because insurers drop them or raise rates by great margins when the uninsured can be insured by other means. I think its heartless to have people wait 3 years for their full benefits to kick in when there are plans to fix the uninsured right now. |
How many Republicans would vote in favor of these ideas?| I think it is heartless to strap our childen with an insurmountable debt because of the health care bill. |
Why are the economists wrong when they say that repealing the bill will cost the government (and our children) over a trillion bucks?| I think it is heartless to give teenagers condoms and not tell them all of the ramifications of having sex when they are teenagers. |
Then don't vote in favor of "abstinence only" sex ed.| I will say again conservatives are not evil, they want people covered as well, they just think a different way is better. Why won't the dems discuss any of the republican ideas? |
Why won't you?
And then:| It does not matter that other judges did not, the fact is this one did. Its not a contest to see if one side gets more rulings or not. |
No, it's not. It just means that the legal question of whether the bill is constitutional or not is still open, and that nobody should think that a single lower-court judge's opinion is the last word. That SCOTUS will be looking at this issue is almost assured, and until they do, nothing is certain. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 18:03:48 [Permalink]
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More on the legal question:The ruling will certainly be stayed pending appeal, if not by Vinson himself then by the appeals court. It will also almost certainly be overturned by the appeals court because Supreme Court precedent is squarely on the side of the broadest imaginable interpretation of the commerce clause (whether that should be the case or not is irrelevant; lower courts are still bound by precedent).
Now, whether the Supreme Court chooses to overturn some of its precedents or not remains to be seen. But until this case works its way through all the levels of the judicial system, health care reform is not null and void. On another note, anyone else get annoyed when someone (I'm looking at you, Robb) says they want something discussed, but then vanish when you try to discuss it with them? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 20:30:10 [Permalink]
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Robb watches too much Glenn Beck. When you call mandatory insurance "tyranny" and in the same paragraph say that other mandatory insurance is just fine... you are not thinking rationally.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2011 : 21:05:53 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
When you call mandatory insurance "tyranny" and in the same paragraph say that other mandatory insurance is just fine... you are not thinking rationally. |
Reminds me of the teabagger signs at rallies, like "Keep the Government out of my Medicare!" |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2011 : 07:53:38 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Robb
Now its clear that the Obama administration will not comply with the injunction which seems to me to be lawlessness. At least Wisconsin understands. |
The mandate doesn't kick in until 2014. Here is a comment from the page that you linked to Robb.
John C says:
February 2, 2011 at 5:11 pm
@ The Johns: I have been a client of my health insurance company for 8 years and always paid and file 0 major claims in that time. My 15 year old son was diagnosed last spring with cancer. After the initial diagnosis we were dropped from our insurance. After “Obamacare” passed we were informed that we were again eligible for coverage. Found out todays ago now that the new law is on hold we are back out. It’s not a big deal though, I mean if my son dies (which is now likely as we have depleted our savings, home equity and borrowed as much as we can to pay for the care he has received so far). I suppose it was meant to be. Right? Thanks Van Hollen! |
Yay for the good guys! Down with ObamaCare!!!
And you wonder why I think the Republican Party is heartless. Sure this is anecdotal. But there are real repercussions attached to the kind of action Wisconsin is taking. But hey... Wrong is wrong, right?
This action by Wisconsin couldn't have waited until the plan worked its way though the courts, and altered if necessary, right? And you know why they didn't wait? POLIFUCKINGTICS!!! You like it Robb. They're playing the song for you. We wouldn't want Wisconsin to suffer "lawlessness" by allowing the implementation of any provision in RebubliCare ummm, ObamaCare, now would we? But then, the people who are negatively effected by a ruling that covers every single part of the plan, including parts that no one in their right mind would object to, with the exception of insurance companies and their lap dogs of course, are just abstractions to the judge and the politicians, aren't they?
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Alright, enough Wisconsin bashing. Are you aware of our successful state run health care plan for the poor?Read about it!
My mother, who was laid off almost two years ago, is on this plan and it is great for her. She has access to super low cost health care (like $4 a visit)
Maybe J.B. Vanhollen doesn't want the Fed to come in and fuck it all up on us! |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 02/06/2011 07:54:59 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2011 : 10:13:15 [Permalink]
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So Wisconsin is already a socialist stronghold!
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2011 : 11:31:02 [Permalink]
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| I wasn't Wisconsin bashing. I was Judge Vinson bashing, because he didn't have to throw out the whole thing. What he did will hurt people. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2011 : 14:38:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
| Wait... what? It's okay with you that the government demands taxes for services you might never use, but it's "tyranny" for the government to demand that you directly pay for services you might never use? That makes no sense at all. Either Medicare and Medicaid are also "tyranny," or the individual mandate is not. You can't have it both ways. |
I am trying to be consistent here. I am for governing our country by the constitution. The constitution says that it is legal to tax people for services, it does not allow the government to force us to use these services. I do believe that it is tyranny to forcibly take people’s money away under penalty but the fact is it’s the law. I really don’t think I have much chance in changing that fact.
| Why are the economists wrong when they say that repealing the bill will cost the government (and our children) over a trillion bucks? |
http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/rightnow?ContentRecord_id=d193e30f-145b-4256-98d2-465b6cce6aa8&ContentType_id=b4672ca4-3752-49c3-bffc-fd099b51c966&Group_id=00380921-999d-40f6-a8e3-470468762340
| No, it's not. It just means that the legal question of whether the bill is constitutional or not is still open, and that nobody should think that a single lower-court judge's opinion is the last word. That SCOTUS will be looking at this issue is almost assured, and until they do, nothing is certain. |
Sure, but the judge did issue an injunction for the government to stop implementing the law. President Obama has seemed to ignore this.
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Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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“Obamacare” unconstitutional?
