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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2011 : 21:14:45 [Permalink]
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Officials in protective gear check for signs of radiation on children who are from the evacuation area near the Fukushima Daini nuclear plant in Koriyama, March 13, 2011 |
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 03/12/2011 21:15:13 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2011 : 23:50:37 [Permalink]
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| H., I think that photo is scarier than anything else I've seen about this particular earthquake and its aftermath. Long-lens videos of an exploding nuclear power plant don't come nearly as close to bringing the issues home as that pic. Damn. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/13/2011 : 03:51:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
An English teacher in Japan named Ryan McDonald has been featured a few times on CNN today, and he's now stating that there's no food to be found and the last thing he ate was a Cup-O-Noodles 12 hours ago. This was mighty worrisome until Google revealed that he lives in Fukushima prefecture, home to the damaged nuke plant and some 250 km north of Tokyo. I mean, it still sucks that people are going hungry (and sucks more that people are dying), but I've got more direct concern for my wife's well-being than random media correspondents. CNN needs to do a better job of reporting where their reporters are reporting from.
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You don't actually expect honest reporting from a 24h news channel do you? They aren't FAUX, obviously, but these are the same people that followed a balloon for 8 hours while constantly reminding viewers that a small child might fall to his death at any moment... despite the obvious fact that the balloon wasn't large enough to lift off with 50lb of ballast.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 04:26:36 [Permalink]
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Yesterday, I read where someone asked to the effect of: "What bonehead decided to build nuke plants on the coast of a seriously earthquake/tsunami-prone land mass?"
I've looked for the article this morning but couldn't find it. Sorry.
But that's a damned, good question, being as how Japan suffered two similar disasters back in the forties courtesy of the US, et al. (If that wasn’t paybacks for Pearl Harbor, I don’t know what might qualify.)
They’re now stating that over 1,000 are dead and food and, more importantly, water, are running short in many areas, and electricity is iffy. Honda and Toyota, among others industries have shut down. As the dig-out progresses, it’s going to get worse.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 10:35:51 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
A map I just created to ease the fears of my mother-in-law:
[Snipped copy of map - Dave W.] |
Excellent way of doing it Dave. Hope everything works out for your family. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 13:37:27 [Permalink]
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Getting worse by the minute and not just because the US might share in the disaster.
As Japan races to avert multiple nuclear meltdowns, one expert warned Sunday that radiation could spread to the U.S.
Joe Cirincione, president of Ploughshares Fund, told Fox News' Chris Wallace Japan's nuclear crisis is unprecedented.
"One reactor has had half the core exposed already," he explained. "This is the one they're flooding with sea water in a desperate effort to prevent it from a complete meltdown. They lost control of a second reactor next to it, a partial meltdown, and there is actually a third reactor at a related site 20-kilometers away they have also lost control over. We have never had a situation like this before."
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I think that Japan is in bigger trouble than we know, as is anyone down wind. There is also the drinking water supply to consider; how much will the radiation affect that?
The next week or two will probably tell much of the tale, but right now it ain't looking good.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 14:11:15 [Permalink]
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Disclosure: I have close to 30 years experience in nuclear power, however all at a Pressurized Water Reactor (PWR) plant. The Japanese reactors in question are Boiling Water Reactors (BWR). While my expertise is in PWRs, I know something of BWR design.
From what I have seen and read, the explosion was in the Reactor Building or Secondary Containment (the rectangular building on the left side of the diagram), and was almost certainly a hydrogen burn. The fuel is housed in the reactor vessel, which is ~6 inch thick steel. The reactor vessel is inside the Primary Containment (the inverted light bulb shaped enclosure), also steel, though I don't know how thick. One response to a high pressure in the reactor is to vent steam to the torus, or suppression pool, which is partially full of water, where the steam is condensed. That water can then be recirculated through a heat exchanger and back to the reactor vessel to maintain cooling. The problem in Japan is a lack of AC power for the pumps that would do this. In any case, it appears that as of now the reactor vessel and primary containment are intact.
I don't know exactly how the hydrogen got into the reactor building. I believe that there is a provision of venting the torus / primary containment, but I'm not sure exactly how that works. Although hydrogen can be an indication of high fuel temperatures, it is not conclusive. There is also a slight amount of excess hydrogen in the coolant as an oxygen scavenger to prevent corrosion. Any steam vented from the reactor coolant would necessarily contain hydrogen. It is quite possible that the hydrogen may have come from both sources.
Here is a cutaway view of a typical BWR:
This is, no doubt, a serious accident. Comparisons to Chernobyl are however a bit premature, and inaccurate. The Chernobyl reactor was of a completely different (and inferior) design. It did not have a reactor vessel comparable to a BWR or PWR vessel, rather the fuel was in hundreds of individual tubes. It also had no real containment building. The Chernobyl accident was caused by operation far outside of allowed parameters leading to a rapid power increase and a steam explosion breaching the reactor pressure tubes. This was further complicated by a fire in the carbon moderator (not used in BWR or PWR light water reactors).
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The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 18:47:40 [Permalink]
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| Here is a link to a Nuclear Energy Institute page about the Japanese nuclear plant status. NEI is a trade organization of the US nuclear power industry, so of course there is no "end of the world" spin. Their information, however, is as good or better than anything I've seen. It should be, as their contacts are much better than anything CNN or most anyone else has. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2011 : 18:49:54 [Permalink]
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Dave:
Glad to here Liz is OK. I hope you both come through this as well as can be expected. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 02:17:50 [Permalink]
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There's some panic here in the Philippines, a country notoriously ripe for rumors. The Philippines (I believe) is the world's number one cell phone texting nation. So panic spreads by way of forwarded text messages. Here's one I received less than an hour and a half ago: | bbc news: up0n govt cnfirms radiation leak at fukushima nuclear plants. Asian countries should take necessary precautions. Remain indoors first 24 hours. Swab neck skin with betadine wher thyroid area is, radiation hits thyroid first. Radiation may hit phil at starting 4pm 2day. -c0nfirmed |
Of course, I tuned immediately to BBC News, which was saying no such thing. Only very minor leaks thus far at any Japanese plants, though serious explosions in one or two non-reactor buildings. Also, the wind was blowing east-north-east from from Japan, not toward the Philippines.
I sent a reasoned "hoax" report back to the text sender, which she promised to send back "up-steam" as well.
This reminds me of major newspaper articles and headlines I read during a visit to the Philippines in the summer of 1979. One Manila newspaper said unequivocally that Skylab was going to fall on, and destroy, the Philippines. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 15:36:31 [Permalink]
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Satellite Photos of Japan, Before and After the Quake and Tsunami.
(Move the slider to compare satellite images from before and after the disaster.)
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2011 : 20:19:37 [Permalink]
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| Another explosion, and now talk about the cores being exposed to air in more than one reactor. The Japanese government is telling people within 30 km of the plant to stay indoors (the evacuation zone on my map is a 20 km radius). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Japan
