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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 10:39:12 [Permalink]
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As for WMD's. Congress believed what the Bush administration told them. Pity. It wasn't until later that we found out how much of it was trumped up. Why do you think Scooter Libby went to jail? Outing a CIA agent because her husband told the truth about Iraq's nuclear program. The Bush/Cheney administration wanted there to be WMD's, and they made that clear to intelligence gathering agencies. We know that now. Even as the inspectors were telling them they couldn't find anything, he had them pulled out because he didn't like what he was hearing. He fucking lied!!! Iraq was a neocon operation that had it it's roots back in the nineties with the neocon suggestion that Iraq could serve is the first country in our goal for a Pax Americana.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 10:49:29 [Permalink]
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Bill:
Certainly no more of a threat than was Saddam, if even that. |
More crap. Let's see. He sponsored the downing of an american jet over scotland and was behind many bombings of US Embassies. He attacked us. When did Saddam attack us?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 03/26/2011 : 12:57:21 [Permalink]
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You know, Bill, you just sound hysterical. There are plenty of reasonable arguments against Obama involving the US in military action against Qaddaffi (and arguments for) It is not such a black and white issue. But you sound like Fox news. I know I am attacking you and not your argument. YOu are so ready to call Obama a criminal, but then you don't criticize Bush Jr's actions, which have gotten a whole lot more people killed.
Your kind of argument makes me despair for the my country. The media and politicians could elevate the discussion, but I often hear schoolyard-like arguments.... "My daddy hasn't done anything wrong, but your daddy is a criminal...."
So, Bill, if you want anyone's respect, then you need to stop being so emotional |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 13:52:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
So, Bill, if you want anyone's respect, then you need to stop being so emotional
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Bill is not emotional, he's delusional. When he looks around, the world does not look to him like we perceive it. He has a very strong religious filter to his perception that impairs his logical- and reasoning- processes (if they work at all).
I'm starting to wonder if he's beyond salvation.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 05:20:44 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
You know, Bill, you just sound hysterical. There are plenty of reasonable arguments against Obama involving the US in military action against Qaddaffi (and arguments for) It is not such a black and white issue. But you sound like Fox news. I know I am attacking you and not your argument. YOu are so ready to call Obama a criminal, but then you don't criticize Bush Jr's actions, which have gotten a whole lot more people killed.
Your kind of argument makes me despair for the my country. The media and politicians could elevate the discussion, but I often hear schoolyard-like arguments.... "My daddy hasn't done anything wrong, but your daddy is a criminal...."
So, Bill, if you want anyone's respect, then you need to stop being so emotional
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You obviously have no idea who I am. I have plenty of beefs with GWB. If you want to start that thread I’ll help you put together a list. But GWB is no longer the president so I now care more about the actions of the sitting prez.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 05:27:37 [Permalink]
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So in Iraq and Afgainstan we fight against al-Qaeda while in Libya we fight along side them? And are we, the infidals, not the invaders?
Earlier this month, al-Qaeda issued a call for supporters to back the Libyan rebellion, which it said would lead to the imposition of "the stage of Islam" in the country.
Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, the Libyan rebel leader, has said jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi's regime.
In an interview with the Italian newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore, Mr al-Hasidi admitted that he had recruited "around 25" men from the Derna area in eastern Libya to fight against coalition troops in Iraq. Some of them, he said, are "today are on the front lines in Adjabiya".
Mr al-Hasidi insisted his fighters "are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists," but added that the "members of al-Qaeda are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader".
His revelations came even as Idriss Deby Itno, Chad's president, said al-Qaeda had managed to pillage military arsenals in the Libyan rebel zone and acquired arms, "including surface-to-air missiles, which were then smuggled into their sanctuaries".
Mr al-Hasidi admitted he had earlier fought against "the foreign invasion" in Afghanistan, before being "captured in 2002 in Peshwar, in Pakistan". He was later handed over to the US, and then held in Libya before being released in 2008.
US and British government sources said Mr al-Hasidi was a member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, or LIFG, which killed dozens of Libyan troops in guerrilla attacks around Derna and Benghazi in 1995 and 1996
http://tinyurl.com/4a89ea5
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/27/2011 05:33:56 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 05:31:20 [Permalink]
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We are just getting ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole by trying to get involved in all the domestic issues of these Muslium countries. In Iraq we fight against al-Qaeda and they hate us while in Liyba we fight along side of them and they still hate us. We need to quit using our military as nation builders and the world’s policemen and go back to where their one and only purpose is to defend the boarders of the USA and not get involved with all these Muslum's domestic issues.
Sri Lankan Muslims beat and stamp on an effigy of U.S. President Barack Obama during a protest rally against the allied forces' air strike in Libya, in Colombo, Sri Lanka, Friday, March 25, 2011. NATO's military staff is drawing up detailed plans to assume full control of the no-fly zone over Libya in coming days, after member nations agreed to take on the operation from a U.S.-led coalition
http://tinyurl.com/6k2gsz2
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/27/2011 05:35:00 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 07:18:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
We are just getting ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole by trying to get involved in all the domestic issues of these Muslium countries. |
Yep.| In Iraq we fight against al-Qaeda and they hate us while in Liyba we fight along side of them and they still hate us. |
You shouldn't go seeking the approval of fanatics. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 15:04:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
You shouldn't go seeking the approval of fanatics.
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I would be happy if he was just seeking the approval of congress. I think they should be involved before the president decides to assit al-Queda in overthrowing a government. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 15:32:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Bill scott
I would be happy if he was just seeking the approval of congress. |
Again: petition your duly elected representatives to change the law. You know you have the right to do so, yes?| I think they should be involved before the president decides to assit al-Queda in overthrowing a government. |
So you're siding with an admitted terrorist who fought against the US in Iraq. Why do you hate America, Bill? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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podcat
Skeptic Friend
435 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 18:27:17 [Permalink]
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Actually, this wasn't the first time the US assisted al-Qaeda....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_queada#Jihad_in_Afghanistan |
“In a modern...society, everybody has the absolute right to believe whatever they damn well please, but they don't have the same right to be taken seriously”.
-Barry Williams, co-founder, Australian Skeptics |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 20:13:21 [Permalink]
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I agree the US should not be policeman to the world. The difference with Libya and the 1st Gulf war is that we are in a coalition with other countries and not leading the attacks. the drawbacks are of course money and image. There are some disadvantages in not joining other countries against Qaddaffi. Acc to history, when it comes to these kind of military actions, Congress is usually not consulted
The problems with getting rid of dictators, is that it can often lead to chaos in that country. However, Libya is different than Iraq is that it has a lot of different tribes and tribal alliances. It is important to remember each Arab and or Muslim country is different. There are probably more similarities between the US and the UK than there is between Libya and Iraq.
Al Qaeda is not anywhere close to being as organized as they were before 2001. I am more considered about Pakistan. There is also a concern about Iran, but I am not sure they can come up with nuclear weapons before thier economy fall apart. It is very difficult and expensive to build nuclear weapons and their delivery systems
These are just my random thoughts, so please excuse the disorganized presentation. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 04:38:27 [Permalink]
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| Originally posted by Dave W. |
| Again: petition your duly elected representatives to change the law. You know you have the right to do so, yes? |
And you petition yours. Maybe we can get that act reversed and make the president go before congress before bombing other countries, as we both agree he should.
| I think they should be involved before the president decides to assit al-Queda in overthrowing a government. |
So you're siding with an admitted terrorist who fought against the US in Iraq. |
No. That was my whole point that you just agreed with. We don't need to be siding with anybody. Not the terrorist leader running the country and the not the terrorist organization trying to overthrow him. This is a domestic issue for Libya and we should not and cannot be getting involved in all these countries domestic issues with our military. We need to go back to using our military to defending the boarders against invading nations both here and abroad. No more of this being the world's policemen. And no more acting on orders from the UN and ignoring the congress. That action has now got us flying air cover and assisting al-Queda in Libya.
| Why do you hate America, Bill? |
OK now you are just being stupid for theatrics, why? I think we pretty much agree on this issue:
A: We should not even be there in the first place helping al-Queda
B: The president should have to go through congress before making such decisions as to bomb other countries.
Leaving this up to the UN and the president now has us flying air cover for al-Quada. As soon as the government is toppled al-Queda will turn on us as "the invaders" and now we have created yet another gorilla war with al-Queda. It's either that or just turn Libya over to al-Queda after the topple. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 03/28/2011 04:58:23 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 05:33:09 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by alienist
I agree the US should not be policeman to the world. The difference with Libya and the 1st Gulf war is that we are in a coalition with other countries and not leading the attacks. the drawbacks are of course money and image. There are some disadvantages in not joining other countries against Qaddaffi. Acc to history, when it comes to these kind of military actions, Congress is usually not consulted
The problems with getting rid of dictators, is that it can often lead to chaos in that country. However, Libya is different than Iraq is that it has a lot of different tribes and tribal alliances. It is important to remember each Arab and or Muslim country is different. There are probably more similarities between the US and the UK than there is between Libya and Iraq.
Al Qaeda is not anywhere close to being as organized as they were before 2001. I am more considered about Pakistan. There is also a concern about Iran, but I am not sure they can come up with nuclear weapons before thier economy fall apart. It is very difficult and expensive to build nuclear weapons and their delivery systems
These are just my random thoughts, so please excuse the disorganized presentation.
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Our trouble seems to be everyone assumes that what comes in the vacuum of the current government when it falls will be better. No such guarantee exists. In fact, the evidence is now pointing to the fact that we seem to be helping al-queda topple the government by flying air cover for them. So here is my prediction for the out come. If and when we assist al-queda to the point where they topple the sitting government they will then turn their backs on us as "the infidel invaders" and we will then have two choices:
A. Leave Libya and allow the country to be taken over by different terrorists than the ones who now control it.
or
B. Commit ground troops to Libya to begin yet another gorilla war with al-Queda and their supporters.
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 07:25:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Originally posted by Bill scott
A quick refresher for you on the US Constitution, the president of the United States does not need UN approval to declare war on any nation deemed a threat to the US.
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A quick refresher on International Law: Loosing a pissing contest against a dictator does not constitute a clear and imminent threat to the safety and sovereignty of your country, and does not grant you the right to launch invasions. Iraq was not a military threat against neither USA nor its allies.
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So why are we in Libya?
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"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bombs away
