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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2011 : 11:53:55
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Doing some general reading about Islam, I came across this essay by David Wood: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/two_faces.htm
When I came across this essay, I just read it, not knowing who David Wood is or what the website www.answering-islam.org is about, so I was totally unbiased. Turns out Wood is a Christian apologist and speaker who regularly debates both Muslims and Atheists (his Christianity only comes out in the essay at the very end.)
I was intrigued by an argument against the Muslim religion as whole that isn't based on the slippery slope. A simplification of what he says is that Muslims are nice and peaceful when they are the minority, but as a majority they become oppressive. He backs up his argument using the life of Muhammad and Koran as the first instance of this pattern, saying that the prophet was peaceful in Mecca when he was unpopular, but that as he rose to power in Medina, he started pretty mercilessly killing Jews and his Arab opponents. Wood's argument can sound pretty darn persuasive and informed, but he leaves out a lot of significant info, like that during the Golden Age of Islam, religious minorities weren't really treated measurably worse than religious minorities were treated in the Christian-dominated West. Wood is really pushing his belief that Islam is unique, but Christianity has its roots in just as much violence, and is just as prone to oppressing minorities when it is in power (I guess Wood just forgets about the Inquisition and Crusades.)
All that said, I would argue that there is definitely something rational about fearing ANY group with a strong ideology different from one's own becoming a powerful majority. I'd argue that most of the countries that are particularly peaceful today are highly pluralistic societies. Even in America where roughly 80% is Christian, there is so much diversity among those Christians that no one group with a distinct, strong vision for how society SHOULD be run is the majority. Maybe it is just best to try to foster a society like that, where no group with a narrow ideology - whatever it may be - takes over. Not sure how we do that, but there it is.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 04:57:04 [Permalink]
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| Your post is thought provoking marfknox. One thought that comes to mind for me is "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely ". Can it not be argued that any or all religions are founded on doctrines that include love and peace? Then when those which have grow into wide acceptance fail to continue universally the doctrines of love and peace in their treatment of others. While people continue to practice love and peace to members seen as their kind, they feel free to hate and act violently toward anyone considered outsiders. This is not say it's a shortcoming of any religion but of those who are involved. This tendency in behavior can be seen in areas outside of religion also like in politics to pick another. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 05:39:43 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
but he leaves out a lot of significant info, like that during the Golden Age of Islam, religious minorities weren't really treated measurably worse than religious minorities were treated in the Christian-dominated West.
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Christianity went through a huge transformation during the Renaissance, with reformation, that ended up with Christian Humanism.
This is a transformation which Islaam has yet to go through. Until they do, I think it's wrong to say that Islaam is no worse than Christianity.
To prove my point, I submit the reactions - among the followers - to Piss Christ and the Danish Muhammed Cartoons. Can we see any difference?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 07:04:00 [Permalink]
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sailingsoul, Last year my book club read The Evolution of God by Robert Wright, and the most intriguing concept in the book to me was his explanation of why we have modern values today which are more compassionate and inclusive, as compared to the values of the past. His argument is basically that the circumstances in the past were that local populations really were in competition for resources (a zero sum game) and therefore it really was simply a matter of survival to try to beat down the others. But when the circumstances are such that what helps one group survive will also help another (a non-zero sum game, or "a rising tide floats all boats") then the groups adopt values that include love and compassion for the other. Wright argues that what we have today regarding the West verses the Muslim world is a non-zero sum game, but that unfortunately most people on both sides perceive it as a zero sum game. He argues that what we need to do is convince everyone on both sides that what benefits one side will benefit the other, and the result will be both sides adopting values that embrace tolerance, acceptance, and love for each other. I was pretty persuaded by his arguments. I just wish I knew how to convince the whole world that all us humans are in a big non-zero sum game together. I also like his argument because for the first time in my history of being a Humanist, I have an objective basis for my love of all humanity. It's, well, convenient to have a nice, logical basis for my values, opposed to just having them because they feel right. (Although I'd have this particular value whether I had a reason or not.)
Dr. Mabuse, that is an excellent point. I'd argue that to reduce and eventually end Islamic terrorism, the West should be doing everything it can to encourage such a transformation within Arab culture. Obviously it wouldn't happen the same way it happened with Western culture because too many circumstances are different. But it seems to me that since Islam the religion is so totally intertwined with Arab history, culture and identity (just as Christianity became with Western culture) it would be easier to have a slow, progressive cultural transformation than it would be to try to rid the world of the Islamic religion. I'd also argue that many Muslims who live in Western nations have assimilated modern values. But if those people are treated with suspicion and fear just because they are Arab and Muslim, while some will try to assimilate even faster and more completely, others will go in the other direction and find Islamic extremism attractive. There's a really good graphic autobiography from a very personal perspective called "Arab in America" about one Arab American guy's experiences growing up in America and coming of age just before 9-11: http://www.amazon.com/Arab-America-Toufic-El-Rassi/dp/0867196734 Bottom line, Muslims are a HUGE portion of humanity. They aren't going away, and while there are always risks in welcoming and befriending a different culture, I think there are much worse risks in cultivating fear and alienation. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 07:35:45 [Permalink]
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By my calculations, based on the founding of Islam, it will be another 136 years or so before a protesting Muslim nails a list of theological complaints to the door of a mosque.
That, of course, is silly. Islam doesn't have centralized power like the Holy Roman Church. But there is something to the idea that Islam is some 600+ years behind Christianity. If centuries of religion might be analogous to years of life, then we're looking at the difference between a 20-year-old and a 14-year-old. Anyone who has known (or has been) both knows there's a huge difference in maturity.
(To follow the analogy further, that'd make Protestantism about five, and modern Protestant Fundamentalism less than 12 months old. No wonder they cry and wet themselves so much.  ) |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 12:26:05 [Permalink]
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This is where the Internet will play an important role. Especially community-networking like Facebook and Twitter.
It was instrumental at getting out pictures of abuse in Iran, and even though the political opposition in Iran didn't manage to assemble enough clout to oust the current theocracy. But it helps the opposition gaining momentum. Sooner or later it will spawn a revolution just as it did in Egypt. In Libya the scale is still in the balance.
Telecommunication is bringing the Information Age to muslims and it is forcing them to adjust. Their renaissance is starting now on a global scale, when their religious leaders are starting to loose their monopoly on authority and knowledge, religious or otherwise. If we can help them with basic human needs and expand their world, they will have more time and energy over to think for themselves: the first step in shedding superstition and trading it for enlightment.
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 12:43:40 [Permalink]
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Firstly welcome back Marfknox
| Dr. Mabuse, that is an excellent point. I'd argue that to reduce and eventually end Islamic terrorism, the West should be doing everything it can to encourage such a transformation within Arab culture. |
The words "Arab" and "Muslim" are not interchangeable. Only around 20% of Muslims are Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims. Changing Arab culture wouldn't do much about the 200 million Muslims in Indonesia for example. Unless of course you actually mean that Arab culture is the source of terrorism and not Islam. Some of the most liberal Islamic countries are Arab, e.g. Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, and Jordan. Not trying to be anal.
| I'd argue that most of the countries that are particularly peaceful today are highly pluralistic societies. |
Is this not just a special case for the USA? (If you are talking about the USA, I'd like to know what definition of "peaceful" you are using, I'm going to assume you mean internally as relates to civil unrest and crime.)
The USA was diverse to begin with, and became more-so. Meanwhile in the old world where people have much greater ties to their physical location, pluralism can lead to the desire for self determination, which is usually a bloody affair. See Yugoslavia for example. Basically I don't think it is that simple and there are also geopolitical factors.
It could also be said that most peaceful countries have more diversity because they are more affluent therefore have more immigrants. (which leads onto the next point)
I think your point to Sailingsoul rings more true to me, when there is plenty, there is peace, this is not a new idea. When you combine both elements, poverty and clear social divisions, you will get conflict.
In the USA there is a clear divide between red and blue, republican/democrat, north/south, whatever you want to call it, but there is still plenty.
I'd like to think that mankind can learn that not every game is a zero-sum game, but it's hammered into us all through life. Life at it's most basic level is a competition for resources, when resources become low, then it's a zero-sum game and then pluralism is not good, it's "us" against "them".
Only through our devotion to the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings Jesus Christ can Mankind learn to rise above this dog eat dog world and learn to be charitable and to love thy neighbour.
Is Islam inherently and permanently oppressive?
While it's true that some Christian regimes have been brutal and oppressive in the past, I think it's an oversimplification to say that time will fix everything. Things could get worse. Brutality comes more easily in times and places where life is cheap. When you see death every day from infant mortality, disease, war, poverty, etc death doesn't carry the same weight as it does for someone in middle class suburbia.
You can already see the richer Islamic countries adopting a more western value system, although we still have a long way to go. From what I've seen some Islamic countries already identify more with the west than they do with the middle east, in middle class areas Satellite TV and the internet pervades every household (Again poverty is the hindrance) bringing with it the values and culture of America (a good thing despite it's flaws), they can censor nudity and language, but they would never even think to censor the references to equal rights and status for women, homosexuals, religious diversity etc. Eventually it becomes the culture to consider these things as normal.
IMO we will see a truly inclusive and non-oppressive Islamic state one day, the question I have is whether they would ever have got there on their own. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2011 : 15:21:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
The words "Arab" and "Muslim" are not interchangeable. Only around 20% of Muslims are Arabs, and not all Arabs are Muslims. Changing Arab culture wouldn't do much about the 200 million Muslims in Indonesia for example. Unless of course you actually mean that Arab culture is the source of terrorism and not Islam. Some of the most liberal Islamic countries are Arab, e.g. Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, and Jordan. Not trying to be anal. |
I would probably stick in everything up to (but not including) the Sahara, Turkey, and Iran -- at least it makes sense in a political and historical context. I agree the word Arab is highly overextended though. I'm pretty sure everyone here means majority Muslim nations rather than only Arab nations in any case. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2011 : 06:39:24 [Permalink]
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OFFC, thanks for the many thoughtful and informative comments. The only things I have a response to are:
| Only through our devotion to the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings Jesus Christ can Mankind learn to rise above this dog eat dog world and learn to be charitable and to love thy neighbour. |
Christianity was not always the inclusive religion it tends to be today (depending on who is practicing it) In Wright's book, he gives a great argument with lots of evidence that Christianity started out just as exclusive and only widened its circle of compassion more and more over a long time as circumstances changed, and it is only relatively recently that that circle has come to include of all mankind.
| IMO we will see a truly inclusive and non-oppressive Islamic state one day, the question I have is whether they would ever have got there on their own. |
Yes, let's hope that modern, humanist values will come to transform Islam as they transformed Christianity after the dark ages ended. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2011 : 14:52:18 [Permalink]
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| I read a book The Battle of God by Karen Armstrong a while ago. She writes about fundamentalism in Christianity, Islam and among Jews. On of her points was that fundamentalism comes from a feeling of insecurity about one's life and the world. So when people feel insecure they look to the past for their answers. They look for certain aspects of religion to help them feel more secure. It has been a while since I read the book, so I can't remember other points she made |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2011 : 15:17:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Only through our devotion to the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings Jesus Christ can Mankind learn to rise above this dog eat dog world and learn to be charitable and to love thy neighbour. |
That's just pure bullshit.
The rest of your post: food for thought. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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David Wood's Claim: Terrorism Benefits All Muslims
