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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/14/2011 : 06:09:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
Not that I think the experiment would be worth it, but it would be interesting to see how a president like Herman Cain would function in the office. What a lot of people don't seem to get is that presidential candidatates make all kinds of promises, but they are't legislators and they often up against all kinds of opposition from Congress once they have the position. How the hell would something as radical and dumb as throwing out the current tax system in its entirety and replacing it with 9-9-9 even get passed? The president's most powerful tool when it comes to policy and law is the veto. He/she can of course use the bully pulpit and have some strong advocacy, but it ultimately isn't going to be the president writing the bills, and they have to pass a lot of other powerful people before they finally get to the president. I imagine a president like Herman Cain (or any candidate on the left or right who is strongly aligned with the grassroots bases of conservatism or liberalism) would end up largely being a do-nothing president seeing as little that he uniquely advocates would go through, and he'd probably veto other proposals.
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Not likely that it will pass. Congresscritters can do math.
The national sales tax targets the poor unequally.
Given that the poor usually live paycheck to paycheck spending 100% of their income on goods and services per year and that rich people spend less than that (for argument's sake 75% of their income). You get an income tax rate directly and indirectly of 18% for the poor and 15.75% for the rich. Corporations would pay more or less then rich people depending on how the sales tax is implemented. They will not, however, pay as much as poor people.
The 9-9-9 tax is a regressive tax targeting the poor. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2011 : 07:36:02 [Permalink]
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Val wrote:| The 9-9-9 tax is a regressive tax targeting the poor. |
Yup. That's what he means when he says "broadening the base." Millionaires pay less than the piddly amount they already do under the current system (much less than the percentage they'd pay in other developed nations or in earlier periods in US history), and poor and working class Americans who already barely get by (largely because of assistance from family, friends, private charities, and public social programs) would be taxed more. Broadening the base indeed. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2011 : 13:03:16 [Permalink]
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Herman Cains 9,9,9 national tax reform will not happen. It will take a constitution amendment to get it through and that could take years if at all.
What Cains has done was to capture the attention of the people with his simplistic and radical demonstration of the type of change he will bring compared to the same old politics of his competitors.
He serves his pizza with a crispy crust and nothing soft in the middle. One has to dunk it in the tea to eat it. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2011 : 13:22:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Herman Cains 9,9,9 national tax reform will not happen. It will take a constitution amendment to get it through... |
Why? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2011 : 14:11:32 [Permalink]
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Ed Brayton quotes Herman Cain:God’s been in this from the beginning because when I first started to feel that I needed to consider running I did a lot of praying. I felt like Moses when God said, ‘I want you to go into Egypt and lead my people out.’ Moses resisted. I resisted. Moses said you got the wrong person. You can’t be talking about me.
I had these conversations with God in terms of, ‘Lord, I’ve done a lot of things but are you sure? But you shouldn’t question God. You should just make sure that’s the message.
God has been in this since the beginning and my staff and I we say that all the time. There are certain things that happen along this journey that they couldn’t happen unless God was in it. I know that for a fact because of my life long faith. Once again confusing facts with baloney.
Of course, we need some wingnut-on-wingnut action here from Michele Bachmann:When you take the 9-9-9 plan, and turn it upside down, the devil’s in the details. So now Herman Cain has some antichrist cred. Hey wait, didn't Cain kill Abel?
And Jason Rosenhouse quotes Paul Waldman on Cain's explanation of how the 9-9-9 plan came about:My guess is that Cain keeps saying that his plan was produced by a “regression analysis” when he’s challenged because it’s a way of saying, “It’s based on a statistical technique that you don’t understand that goes by a name you’re unfamiliar with, so I just won the argument.” And when he’s dealing with reporters, he’s usually right, about that at least. Dazzle 'em with bullshit, Herm. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ThorGoLucky
Snuggle Wolf
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2011 : 20:24:32 [Permalink]
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Nein! Nein! Nein!
Some people want simple answers like 9-9-9, no matter how wrong.
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 07:53:45 [Permalink]
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alienist, nice find. I found this to be key: | He thus neatly encapsulates what has become an article of faith for many white conservatives; namely, that it is they, not black and brown people, who are the true victims of bigotry. Mind you, they have not a shred of a scrap of a scintilla of evidence to support this cockamamie idea, but they believe it anyway. |
There is ample evidence of racial discrimination that still goes on in American society, and which has a clear and often measurable impact on the lives, professions, and income of African Americans. Just two examples:
Study Suggests Bias Against 'Black' Names on Resumes
Black Youth More Receive Harsher Sentences Than White Youth For Same Crimes
But who cares about evidence. Let's all just believe what we want to believe. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 09:37:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
Herman Cains 9,9,9 national tax reform will not happen. It will take a constitution amendment to get it through... |
Why?
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Only the states charge sales tax. So to have a federal sales tax across the board will require an amendment to the constitution. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 11:12:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
Only the states charge sales tax. So to have a federal sales tax across the board will require an amendment to the constitution. |
You need to re-read the Constitution. The power to levy taxes is granted to Congress. It doesn't say what kind, or that certain types of Federal taxes are prohibited. We could have a national sales tax tomorrow, if they wanted. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 14:24:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
Only the states charge sales tax. So to have a federal sales tax across the board will require an amendment to the constitution. |
You need to re-read the Constitution. The power to levy taxes is granted to Congress. It doesn't say what kind, or that certain types of Federal taxes are prohibited. We could have a national sales tax tomorrow, if they wanted.
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I don't think you understand the implications of a federal tax forced on all the states. That requires a constitutional amendment for all states to comply.
Even the passing of Obamacare which mandates everyone has to signon to the program is being challenged by the states. Because the federal government is infringing on the rights of the states. The US is a federation of States. You apparently do not have a strong understanding of federal and state rights and are just skeptically ignorant. Take a few civic classes. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 15:35:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
I don't think you understand the implications of a federal tax forced on all the states. That requires a constitutional amendment for all states to comply. |
If it's a Federal sales tax, then the states don't need to "comply" with anything, the people do. There is no need for an amendment to create a national sales tax, just like there was no need to pass an amendment to create the Federal income tax.| Even the passing of Obamacare which mandates everyone has to signon to the program is being challenged by the states. Because the federal government is infringing on the rights of the states. |
That has to do with the Commerce Clause, and not taxation. The Constitution is utterly clear on taxes: Congress has the power to levy them, period. What's at issue with Obamacare is that several states think it oversteps the government's constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce.| The US is a federation of States. You apparently do not have a strong understanding of federal and state rights and are just skeptically ignorant. Take a few civic classes. |
Quit projecting your failures onto me. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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justintime
BANNED
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 15:57:28 [Permalink]
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So you are saying there is no need to get state approval to implement a national sales tax across the board. That states will have to accepts it just because it is federally approved. Where is the separation of state rights and federal rights?
I would like you to go on record for this.
CAIN'S 9-9-9 Plan is Unconstitutional for TWO Big Reasons!
Cain's 9-9-9 plan is unconstitutional for two reasons:
1) The Constitution (through the 16th amendment) only gives the federal government the power to collect INCOME tax (not sales tax). This is why there has never been a national sales tax.
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
The 10th amendment gives the states any powers not specified in the Constitution so only the states are allowed to impose sales taxes.
2) The Constitution specifically requires a supermajority (i.e a two-thirds vote) in only 7 places and for special circumstances (overriding a veto, expelling a member, etc.). For passing Bills and changing Laws, only a majority vote is required and this is the essence of the democratic process. In fact, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to have a law which BYPASSES THIS DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. Cain can not make a law that requires a 2/3 vote for it to be changed. If that was allowed you could also make a law that required 99 out of 100 votes for it to change and laws would be near IMPOSSIBLE to repeal by future congresses.
It is troubling that these two very important items are being ignored by the media. Ron Paul did not mention either of these about 9-9-9 during the last debate which suggests he may be a shill (a very good one with a large following). Please bump and pin to show that GLP respects the Constitution. Thank you! |
| Edited by - justintime on 10/16/2011 16:03:48 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 18:25:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by justintime
So you are saying there is no need to get state approval to implement a national sales tax across the board. That states will have to accepts it just because it is federally approved. |
Yup.| Where is the separation of state rights and federal rights? |
The Constitution gives Congress the power to levy taxes. What is unclear about this? It is powers not explicitly given to the Federal government that are reserved to the states or the people. Read the document. It's not very long.I would like you to go on record for this.
CAIN'S 9-9-9 Plan is Unconstitutional for TWO Big Reasons!
Cain's 9-9-9 plan is unconstitutional for two reasons:
1) The Constitution (through the 16th amendment) only gives the federal government the power to collect INCOME tax (not sales tax). This is why there has never been a national sales tax. |
This is completely false. The 16th Amendment reclassified income taxes so that they wouldn't have to be apportioned. It did not give the Federal government the power to collect income taxes.| "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." |
Yes, you even quoted it. Before this amendment was adopted, income taxes were apportioned. Afterwards, they weren't. Read your history, the problem was apportionment, not that it was a tax.| The 10th amendment gives the states any powers not specified in the Constitution so only the states are allowed to impose sales taxes. |
Baloney. The Constitution gives Congress the power to tax. Article One, section 8 begins, "The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes..." This is not a power reserved to the states.| 2) The Constitution specifically requires a supermajority (i.e a two-thirds vote) in only 7 places and for special circumstances (overriding a veto, expelling a member, etc.). For passing Bills and changing Laws, only a majority vote is required and this is the essence of the democratic process. In fact, it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to have a law which BYPASSES THIS DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. Cain can not make a law that requires a 2/3 vote for it to be changed. |
How would he do that?| If that was allowed you could also make a law that required 99 out of 100 votes for it to change and laws would be near IMPOSSIBLE to repeal by future congresses. |
No, that's just crazy talk.| It is troubling that these two very important items are being ignored by the media. |
They both seem to be made-up. Cain isn't violating states rights by trying to impose a national sales tax. And neither does he seem to be trying to pass a law that can only be repealed by a 2/3rds majority.| Ron Paul did not mention either of these about 9-9-9 during the last debate which suggests he may be a shill (a very good one with a large following). |
No, it says that he knows the Constitution better than you do.| Please bump and pin to show that GLP respects the Constitution. |
Who the heck is GLP? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2011 : 19:00:54 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by justintime
Please bump and pin to show that GLP respects the Constitution. |
Who the heck is GLP?
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GLP is "God-like Productions," the name of the website where justintime plagiarized this information from someone named "Anonymous Coward."
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/16/2011 19:01:34 |
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The next black president?
