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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2011 : 06:41:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
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Exactly how does anyone obtain objective, empirical evidence on this subject? Are the poor people going to open up and say " Well of course I am poor because I am uneducated and lazy"?
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That's a very good question? When truthful and factual experiences are not qualified or given any weight when presented.
I would not say and don't believe that most poor people are 'lazy'. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 07:34:00 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Yes Dave, it is a shame. My wish is that there were as many billboards advertising education as there are advertising Big Macs. |
Advertising education would just make it less affordable.| Can I offer step by step instructions? No. Every situation is different. There can not be step-by step instructions. |
Well, then there will have to be a boatload of counselors who can provide such individualized advice to people who find themselves in less-than-optimal situations, but of course those people can't afford to pay for such help. It's a Catch-22. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 08:25:06 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
Yes Dave, it is a shame. My wish is that there were as many billboards advertising education as there are advertising Big Macs. |
Advertising education would just make it less affordable.| Can I offer step by step instructions? No. Every situation is different. There can not be step-by step instructions. |
Well, then there will have to be a boatload of counselors who can provide such individualized advice to people who find themselves in less-than-optimal situations, but of course those people can't afford to pay for such help. It's a Catch-22.
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I don't wish to speak for Ebone, but many would contend that any "engineered" solution to provide such life-skills training is always a poor substitute for a cultural ethos that promotes these skills as core, moral values. That's the basis of what we call "Movement Conservatism," although in that context it's premised on the belief that, as a society, we once possessed a set of common values that we've since lost, or abandoned.
I'm not convinced that such shared values were ever quite as "common" as we may like to think they were. More importantly, if they don't exist now, it seems that the only way they could be re-instated is through just the sort of fabricated intervention we've already dismissed as impractical or inefficient. Attempts to square this circle lead to the kind of cognitive dissonance we see in some activist groups. |
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 13:05:34 [Permalink]
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First, I just wanted to issue a warning about diet sodas. They do cause insulin to be released which leads to decreased glucose which leads to being hungrier earlier. So too much diet soda can backfire on you.
In terms of poverty, there are obviously a lot of causes and factors. I hired a nanny and she earns a decent wage and she is hard-working. Of course, I could not give her health insurance. It took her over 3 years to find a company willing to cover her at reasonable rates. If she had had a health emergency in the meantime, it would have left her deeply in debt. She lost a previous a higher paying job because of her age.
So, if you don't have enough education it is hard to get a decent job. If you don't have a car, it hard to get a decent job (unless you live a place with good transportation system. And even then, you will probably have a long commute). The other basic fact is that if you don't earn enough, it is much harder to save money. If you are under a lot of financial stress, then there is a higher need for immediate rewards.
There is no one answer. I do believe if we invest more in our children, we will get more of a return in 20 or 30 years. However, our politicians and a lot of American people have difficulty thinking in the long term. We want the poor to make sacrifices, yet Americans become irrational with even the mention of raising taxes. The basic fact is that taxes are the price we pay for civilization. the interesting fact is that most developed countries have higher taxes than the US does, yet most people in those countries are overall happier. |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 14:11:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
I don't wish to speak for Ebone, but many would contend that any "engineered" solution to provide such life-skills training is always a poor substitute for a cultural ethos that promotes these skills as core, moral values. |
Sure, but I was talking about hypothetical people who need help now. Ebone suggests that with a good attitude and a willingness to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps, anyone can get out of a jam, but I don't think that's the case at all. Some people, not having been taught good life-skills may simply not know what to do, even if they've got all the will in the world and the best of intentions. And being thus naive, some of them are going to get scammed out of what little they have instead of getting on the road to self-sufficiency.
In other words, some (perhaps a lot) of the people Ebone wants to have around - hard workers with high personal ethics - are going to be punished for it by bad actors, simply because they don't know any better. The solution would appear to be creating a market for "life advisors" who could help these go-getters get going, but the people who would be their customers probably couldn't afford their services (and Ebone wouldn't want their pay to come from his taxes). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Machi4velli
SFN Regular
USA
854 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 18:07:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
The only real solution is education... |
It's a shame that many are too poor to afford an education. |
I don't know that this is true in the US, you can do quite well without paying -- having a poorer family has higher levels of distractions and less encouragement statistically, but I don't know that is's necessarily self-control making the difference here -- I would imagine it's something more concrete like less access to information and time to spend working on academics. In the developing world, I agree.
I do agree with Ebone in that there really isn't much science to comment on in the article. I wouldn't want to really argue their findings without reading the researchers' actual papers.
What I would argue is that it seems other factors are probably more important -- access to information, services, etc, and amount of encouragement and time. |
"Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people."
-Giordano Bruno
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge."
-Stephen Hawking
"Seeking what is true is not seeking what is desirable"
-Albert Camus |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 18:09:44 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | I would just like to add that I never met a person with a good work ethic and integrity who could not pull themselves out of a hole. |
Perhaps that is the primary reason for our differences of opinions on this matter. I know two such people. Two who are very close friends, and who I am slowly perhaps losing as friends as they drift deeper and deeper into poverty, thus putting strain on our friendship (because I am not well-off enough to help them, but I'm well-off enough that both I and they feel embarrassed speaking to each other about our very different problems and successes in life.) Both of these friends of mine came from lower middle class background, had good educations, and both have graduate degrees. Both had at one point stable but mind-numbing jobs in their early twenties, and both decided at that point to go back to school to follow their dreams, and at the time it seemed like a reasonable decision to make. In retrospect, the might have been able to see that the fields they were attempting to go into might be far more difficult to break into these days than in the recent past, but hindsight is always 20/20. After amassing a huge load of student loan debt, both had some successes that seemed to foretell future stability and a real career. But alas, neither were able to ever land a full time stable job in their fields. And with the massive student loan debt and the cost of living in big cities (where the jobs in their fields are) they have been unable to keep up with the cost of living and have had to continuously "borrow" money from friends and family and both have been helped by some government funded social services (unemployment and free clinics.) Both of these people have also had certain health problems rare for their ages, and so they have both amassed yet even more debt (in the tens of thousands) in medical bills. One of my friends cannot really get any more help from family since her family is also falling dangerously close to the poverty line. The other gets some help, but he has siblings and there is only so much to go around. Both of them continue to have hope that they will find the light at the end of these dark tunnels they are in. Both have worked multiple jobs, and when they've been unemployed or underemployed they've kept busy with volunteer work, auditing classes, and one of them started writing online movie reviews which eventually blossomed into some part time income, so neither of them are short of intelligence or strong work ethic. But given their incredible debt loads and years of not being able to work in their fields, it is becoming increasingly unlikely that they will ever be able to get jobs in their fields. And while they can and do get low-paying jobs (which is difficult because they are regularly turned down for being "overqualified") those jobs cannot cover both the cost of living and their monthly debt payments. I'd love to know what you think these individuals should do. It's not like declaring bankruptcy would do anything since student loans don't go away in those cases.
Those two are friends. But I have also met many young people while working for the Mural Arts Program here in Philly who were in dire poverty situations and I fail to see how they will ever get out, despite being young, motivated, and energetic. One was a 15 year old boy who got a girlfriend pregnant. He attempted to take responsibility by moving in with her (his dad is dead and his mom on welfare). He was working for his cousin as a drug mule to help pay for rent and other expenses, but at first opportunity he got a student work summer job (which is how I met him.) His education is rather poor because of the shitty schools he has attended where truancy is 70% and teachers and administrators just pass kids through despite proficiency in reading and math sorely lacking in the majority of students. Then there was this other girl who was 18. She had graduated from one of these shitty schools. She had a 4 year old son and lived with only her mother - who physically abused her. But she needed to live with her mom so she could work since the city provides no day care, and her mom takes care of her son while she works. She told me she hopes to become a nurse some day. But I doubt this will ever happen since she couldn't even write her address properly, despite her high school degree. She's a wonderful young woman. Caring, sensitive, and probably had way more intellectual potential had it not been for her shitty education and home life growing up. So how does she dig her way out? How does the 15 year old boy dig himself out? There are no jobs for them here. Unemployment among their demographic is much higher than the national average. Where can they go? What can they do? Many of the kids I worked with can't even get into the military (some have tried and failed) because they can't test high enough. I don't think you have ever seen the extend to which some poverty in America has sunk. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 19:00:54 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | The only answer I can see coming from the study is to either take away freedom from poor people by making decisions for them or just letting nature takes it's course. |
(Edited to add this first quote from Ebone.)
Um, I answered this in my very first post in this thread: | The SEED accounts and technological innovations to save people time and energy mentioned in the article are a good examples of possible innovations in social programs to deal with it. |
The article's point was that this knowledge, gained by scientific study, can give us insights that better equip us to come up with more effective solutions for battling poverty. And then article gives examples of such policies with the SEED accounts! Not saying that the info from these studies has provided us with all we need to know to destroy poverty, but my gosh, are you saying that the whole situation is just hopeless and we should just give up on alleviating poverty? That we should give up on trying to understand the root causes (because according to you those are just "excuses"?)
| Exactly how does anyone obtain objective, empirical evidence on this subject? Are the poor people going to open up and say " Well of course I am poor because I am uneducated and lazy"? |
The article is about scientific studies that look at some of the possible root causes of poverty, and the answer it comes up with is that perhaps what manifests itself as "laziness" is in fact the inevitable behavior of someone who is mentally exhausted from having too many stressful cost-benefit decisions and being unable to make the right choices on all of them all the time. Analagous to a runner - regardless of what shape they started out in - who can't just keep running indefinitely. When he eventually passes out, are you going to say it is just making excuses to say he's physically too exhausted to continue? Support for the crap you are saying could be supported by empirical observation that the poverty rate is consistent across racial and economic boundaries. It is not. Your claims would be supported if attempts at social programs to alleviate poverty failed equally. But they do not. I've linked to this website before in a conversation with you - to a nonpartisan coalition that promotes social programs that work based on hard evidence: http://evidencebasedprograms.org/wordpress/?page_id=50 So you are just plain wrong that the only answer can be the vague cliches of "education" (gee, thanks for explaining what you mean exactly by that) and pulling one's self up by one's bootstraps.
Your irrational bias on this matter is staggering to me. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 06/08/2011 19:03:13 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 02:39:11 [Permalink]
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| Sometimes the poorest people are the ones who have to work the hardest. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 04:23:29 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Hal
I don't wish to speak for Ebone, but many would contend that any "engineered" solution to provide such life-skills training is always a poor substitute for a cultural ethos that promotes these skills as core, moral values. |
Sure, but I was talking about hypothetical people who need help now. Ebone suggests that with a good attitude and a willingness to pull oneself up by one's bootstraps, anyone can get out of a jam, but I don't think that's the case at all. Some people, not having been taught good life-skills may simply not know what to do, even if they've got all the will in the world and the best of intentions. And being thus naive, some of them are going to get scammed out of what little they have instead of getting on the road to self-sufficiency.
In other words, some (perhaps a lot) of the people Ebone wants to have around - hard workers with high personal ethics - are going to be punished for it by bad actors, simply because they don't know any better. The solution would appear to be creating a market for "life advisors" who could help these go-getters get going, but the people who would be their customers probably couldn't afford their services (and Ebone wouldn't want their pay to come from his taxes). |
You underestimate me Dave. I am all for funding education with tax $$. I want more of it. I don't recall where I ever mentioned that I don't think education should be funded by tax money. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 04:35:07 [Permalink]
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originally posted by marfknox
Um, I answered this in my very first post in this thread:
The SEED accounts and technological innovations to save people time and energy mentioned in the article are a good examples of possible innovations in social programs to deal with it.
The article's point was that this knowledge, gained by scientific study, can give us insights that better equip us to come up with more effective solutions for battling poverty. And then article gives examples of such policies with the SEED accounts! Not saying that the info from these studies has provided us with all we need to know to destroy poverty, but my gosh, are you saying that the whole situation is just hopeless and we should just give up on alleviating poverty? That we should give up on trying to understand the root causes (because according to you those are just "excuses"?)
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Quite frankly I don't really see those ideas as innovative. Don't get me wrong, they are workable ideas but they are nothing new. I also don't think it required extensive scientific study to come up with them. The ideas are simple financial strategies that have been used forever. No need for deep psychological inquiry.
Do I think the situation is hopeless? For some people yes, but some people will take the opportunity and help grow themselves.
| The article is about scientific studies that look at some of the possible root causes of poverty, and the answer it comes up with is that perhaps what manifests itself as "laziness" is in fact the inevitable behavior of someone who is mentally exhausted from having too many stressful cost-benefit decisions and being unable to make the right choices on all of them all the time. |
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
| Edited by - Ebone4rock on 06/09/2011 04:36:55 |
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Hal
Skeptic Friend
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 05:38:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
| The article is about scientific studies that look at some of the possible root causes of poverty, and the answer it comes up with is that perhaps what manifests itself as "laziness" is in fact the inevitable behavior of someone who is mentally exhausted from having too many stressful cost-benefit decisions and being unable to make the right choices on all of them all the time. |
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness.
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As I suggested earlier, explaining this behavior is not the same as excusing it. Colloquially, I might use the explanation as an excuse, but that is another matter. It is entirely appropriate to produce, through research, an "explanation," i.e. validate a hypothesis, without suggesting an application for the results.
In this case, the researcher has simply suggested an explanation for why some people fail to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." |
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Martin Luther King Jr.
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 05:57:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Hal
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
| The article is about scientific studies that look at some of the possible root causes of poverty, and the answer it comes up with is that perhaps what manifests itself as "laziness" is in fact the inevitable behavior of someone who is mentally exhausted from having too many stressful cost-benefit decisions and being unable to make the right choices on all of them all the time. |
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness.
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As I suggested earlier, explaining this behavior is not the same as excusing it. Colloquially, I might use the explanation as an excuse, but that is another matter. It is entirely appropriate to produce, through research, an "explanation," i.e. validate a hypothesis, without suggesting an application for the results.
In this case, the researcher has simply suggested an explanation for why some people fail to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps."
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Agreed, but I do beleive that marf is using the study to excuse people from their personal responsibilities. Maybe it's my own personal bias that is seeing that tendency....but maybe not. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 06:46:22 [Permalink]
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Ebone wrote: | Agreed, but I do beleive that marf is using the study to excuse people from their personal responsibilities. Maybe it's my own personal bias that is seeing that tendency....but maybe not. |
Yeah, your bias. I don't even know what you mean by "excuse people from their personal responsibilities." In what way? Have I suggested that when poor people commit crimes that they shouldn't be prosecuted? As Hal put it, explanations of a behavior are not an excuse for that behavior. It is a FACT that peoples' behavior changes depending on circumstances. Poverty increases crimes, especially violent crimes, child and spousal abuse, drug abuse, physical and mental illness, and malnutrition. It costs society in wasted human resources, money spent on prisons, law enforcement, hospitals, and the legal system. In purely economic terms, poverty leads to waste. In human terms, it creates widespread misery. It changes some people from otherwise decent men and women into detestable degenerates. It changes many otherwise intelligent people into barely literate dolts. 13-17% of the American population lives under the poverty line. That is a MAJOR social ill. Hell, maybe so many despise the poor because it is so much more comforting to think they deserve it and have done it all to themselves. It would be horrible to think of many the perfectly nice, middle class people that we care about might turn into total shitheads if their economic situation got bad enough. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 07:58:21 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
I'm not buying that for a second. Thats just excusing laziness. |
If someone runs a marathon, is it "lazy" for them to claim to be too exhausted to move pianos that afternoon? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Free will as a depletable resource
