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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2011 : 10:25:13 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| Duh. What the hell do you think I've been saying here? Oh, that's right: you stupidly thought that I was saying that being male is an indicator that one is a sexual predator, ignoring completely the words "possible" or "potential." But "ruling out women" is exactly what you were claiming was sexism run rampant. It's a shame that you're so blinded by bias that you couldn't see that you just agreed with what I've been saying. |
No, I know exactly what you have been saying, and I have never disagreed that men are responsible for almost all sexual assaults.
The problem is that you are taking that and failing at induction. Just because 90% of sexual assaults are commited by men does not mean you can logically say that elevator guy is a potential rapist. You, Plait, and anyone else who says that, you are all wrong. You have failed to understand inductive logic.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 10:48:14 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
But you go ahead and continue to move the goalposts. You have taken an indefensible potition and you know it, and you apparently have become incapable of acknowledging your own errors. |
Yeah, I revised my statement, yet I'm "incapable of acknowledging" my errors. Since when is asking for evidence of a claim an error, anyway? Are your statements so reliable that daring to ask you to support them is itself an error?| That's a pretty fucking ungly spot for a skeptic to find themself in, isn't it? |
Look in the mirror, buddy.| If you can find where I said that, then you should post it. This whole bit about female rapists was introduced unto this thread by you. |
Then what you've been saying is hopelessly confused.| My point is that being male is not predictive of the chance you will commit a sexual assault. It is simple sexism to make the claim that male = potential rapist. |
Is it true or not true that a woman is much more likely to be raped by a strange man than a strange woman?| Watson feeling creeped out by a guy who didn't do anything but speak some fairly innocuous words is a manifestation of that sexism. |
And what you've said is a manifestation of your sexism.| It is exactly the same as being afraid of black people because they are black. |
I already pointed out how you're wrong about that, but you didn't address my objections.| The guy didn't say anything crude, he didn't invade her personal space, he didn't press the issue beyond her rejection. |
All irrelevant.| So the person with the problem here is Watson. |
No, it's you.| She is allowing cultural bias to override skepticism and critical thinking. |
Really, why don't you detail just how she's doing that, without dismissing her feelings or insisting upon irrelevancies.| Dr hysterical Plait, who elevated this to "potential sexual assault", just needs to go home and take his meds. |
Ditto you.| And you, Dave_W, if you really think all you need to know to predict the chance of sexual assault is the gender of the person, you are as wrong as Plait. |
And you need to quit creating straw men about what I've said, hypocrite.| You need to step back and give yourself a chance to think it through. Hint- You are failing at inductive reasoning. |
Also:| No, I know exactly what you have been saying, and I have never disagreed that men are responsible for almost all sexual assaults. |
So how is that analogous to the racist thing when it is not true that almost all thefts are committed by black people?| The problem is that you are taking that and failing at induction. Just because 90% of sexual assaults are commited by men does not mean you can logically say that elevator guy is a potential rapist. |
No, I can logically say that a randomly selected man is nine times more likely to be a rapist than a random woman. You do realize that the odds of any randomly selected person being a rapist is non-zero, right?
Or are you just ignoring the word "potential," despite typing it yourself?
Of course, whether the guy in the elevator was a rapist is completely irrelevant to the points that Watson and Plait have made.| You, Plait, and anyone else who says that, you are all wrong. You have failed to understand inductive logic. |
It seems to be all another strawman of yours, actually. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 11:11:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
I wish I could read Swedish. |
You don't need to. The Local is Swedish news in English for those who don't read Swedish.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 07/11/2011 11:31:10 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 11:28:47 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You don't need to. The Local is Swedish news in English for those who don't read Swedish. |
Well, I would have liked to know more of the details about that case. No matter, now. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 11:38:18 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
What's the (misogynist-related) word for hatred of men? |
Misogynist. |
Wait, I see what you mean, now.
Misandrist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 12:21:44 [Permalink]
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I don't know whether to find this whole fiasco amusing or pathetic.
To all the men who keep endlessly talking about this.... STFU and listen to the woman. She is giving good advice about WHAT NOT to do when you are trying to score. Listen instead of talk and you might find more opportunities for procreation.
Fer da cryin' out loud, it's a wonder any men get ever get laid. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 13:31:23 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| It seems to be all another strawman of yours, actually. |
Write out the inductive syllogism then Dave, the one that lets you (and Plait) say that elevator guy is a potential rapist. Put it in the usual format.
| Really, why don't you detail just how she's doing that, without dismissing her feelings or insisting upon irrelevancies. |
I'm not dismissing her feelings. I'm calling her feelings sexist. If you are creeped out by what you admit to be innocuous statements from a member of the opposite gender, then you are the one with the problem.
| And you need to quit creating straw men about what I've said, hypocrite. |
I'm not creating a strawman. I'm saying that you are failing at inductive logic when you take the leap from "most sexual assaults are perpetrated by men" to "therefore a random male stranger is a potential rapist". That is the argument you are making (and Plait), and you know the logic is broken.
| Yeah, I revised my statement, |
You revised one part of your statement, then you took the goalposts and ran down the block with them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 14:28:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I'm not dismissing her feelings. I'm calling her feelings sexist. If you are creeped out by what you admit to be innocuous statements from a member of the opposite gender, then you are the one with the problem. |
This ignores the other factors involved. Way to ignore your own arguments.| Write out the inductive syllogism then Dave, the one that lets you (and Plait) say that elevator guy is a potential rapist. Put it in the usual format. |
Can't do it. Too many premises (more than two). But, pick a random man. The empirical data suggest that one time out of ten, you'll have picked someone who will commit (or attempt) rape or other sexual assault at least once during his lifetime (can't tell by looking at him, though), and that for women, the odds are about one-ninth of that. For victims who are adult women not mentally disabled, the disparity between sexes of perpetrators is even larger. Also, rapists attempt to corner their targets, and get them alone. Thus, adult healthy women should exercise more caution when alone in confined spaces with men they don't know than with women they don't know.
Or, if you're a man and want to put a strange woman you're in a small space with at ease, don't act creepy.| I'm not creating a strawman. I'm saying that you are failing at inductive logic when you take the leap from "most sexual assaults are perpetrated by men" to "therefore a random male stranger is a potential rapist". That is the argument you are making (and Plait), and you know the logic is broken. |
No, that is, indeed, a strawman. All strangers are potential rapists (unless you can suggest a method whereby we can tell safe people from unsafe people based on first glances alone). The odds that a man will rape an adult healthy woman who is a stranger are much larger than a woman doing so. The odds increase when alone, and when trapped, because that's what rapists do.
"Don't act like a rapist" is all that's being suggested, and you got hysterical over it.| You revised one part of your statement, then you took the goalposts and ran down the block with them. |
No, the goalposts were clear from the start, you just ignored them in favor of supporting an argument I wasn't involved with. The question was never "do women rape men?" Nor was it "can women be brutal?" Nor was it, "when a sexual encounter between women has been initiated, can one party take things too far?" Nor was it "do women engage in abuse of teenagers/minors?" (Nor was I interested in splitting hairs over the legal definition of "minor.") I knew beforehand that the answer to all those questions was "yes." None of those questions covered the situation under examination here.
You found one that did, though. You've led me to enlightenment in that regard. The odds that a woman will rape a healthy, adult woman who is a stranger is now, I agree, non-zero. It appears to be one in tens of millions per year, at the most. Now what are the odds that a man will rape a healthy, adult woman who is a stranger? Let's compare the data, and see if differential caution is warranted based on something other than bias. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 14:31:41 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ebone4rock
To all the men who keep endlessly talking about this.... STFU and listen to the woman. She is giving good advice about WHAT NOT to do when you are trying to score. Listen instead of talk and you might find more opportunities for procreation. |
That's what I've been saying. Dude is trying to defend a man's right to act like a creep towards women and yell "sexism!" when that creepiness is pointed out. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 18:13:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Ebone4rock
To all the men who keep endlessly talking about this.... STFU and listen to the woman. She is giving good advice about WHAT NOT to do when you are trying to score. Listen instead of talk and you might find more opportunities for procreation. |
That's what I've been saying. Dude is trying to defend a man's right to act like a creep towards women and yell "sexism!" when that creepiness is pointed out.
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OK. Everyone take 5 and just take a deep breath.
1) I think we can agree that Mr. Creepy in the elevator picked the wrong line to test interest for procreation. Skeptichick pointed these out and referred to the individual as creepy.
2) I suspect that alcohol was a factor with the behavior.
3) Making a leap to "potential sexual assault" was a bit extreme. Did not help the whole thing at all.
4) I believe the term is "man-hating feminism". I've used it to describe some of Starhawk's writing. She sometimes gets on a woman always good, man always bad bent. However the situation described with Skeptichick does not appear to rise to that level.
5) The harder one attacks a person for a reasonable response, the more likely their friends will tend to escalate the severity of the action. Seems to be human nature here.
The fact has been established that rapes do happen in public places and elevators. I would suspect that these occur when the predator and victim are alone in the elevator or are surrounded by people who "don't want to get involved".
I grew up in the middle of nowhere. I have heard my share of drunken request for sex by people with pickled brains towards the fairer sex. For the most part, they tell blotto-boy to get bent and that is the end of it. Also, where I grew up, you were expected to defend those being preyed upon.
Now, can we all just cool off a bit? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 07:03:17 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
1) I think we can agree that Mr. Creepy in the elevator picked the wrong line to test interest for procreation. |
I don't think we can. We know nothing about Elevator Guy's motivation for inviting her for coffee. He never explicitly asked for sex, that's just what other people dreamt up, without a shred of evidence. Sometimes a cup of coffee is just a cup of coffee, even it its 4am local time, which in this instance translates to ~22:00hrs Boston Time.
| Skeptichick pointed these out and referred to the individual as creepy. |
In the video she said she felt creeped out by people who sexualize her, which isn't the same thing as the Elevator Guy being creepy. Especially since neither we nor Rebecca knew his true motivation for inviting her, he could just as well have been looking for something hot refreshing to drink and a nice chat.
Rebecca even admits that in her blog!
I know this might look like splitting hairs, but I think the distinction is important in this case: it wasn't until the misandrist-mafia started calling him potential rapist that Rebecca changed her mind and started calling him creepy.
Actually, looking through the blog where she initially posted her video, she never called him creepy. If she ever did, it must have been elsewhere, which I don't have a link to.
But that never stopped any of the activist-feminists (does misandry-mafia sound better than femi-nazi, Kil?) from telling everyone what Rebecca is, or should be, feeling.
2) I suspect that alcohol was a factor with the behavior. |
It's too late to give the anonymous guy a breathalyzer test, and we can't examine his bar check since we don't know who he is. Rebecca never said anything about him being influenced. The only time I ever met Rebecca in person though, one afternoon or very early evening, she was quite buzzed. But even that says nothing about this instance.
| 3) Making a leap to "potential sexual assault" was a bit extreme. Did not help the whole thing at all. |
That's what Dude and I have been saying. Rebecca didn't originally think it was. But the misandry-mafia certainly think so, and they've swept away some otherwise rational people with the current they've created.
| 4) I believe the term is "man-hating feminism". I've used it to describe some of Starhawk's writing. She sometimes gets on a woman always good, man always bad bent. However the situation described with Skeptichick does not appear to rise to that level. |
Too many of Rebecca's followers seem to think it does, and unfortunately Rebecca herself only made a lame attempt at diffusing the situation by pointing out there's a small chance that the Elevator Guy honestly offered her a cup of coffee and not his seed.
| 5) The harder one attacks a person for a reasonable response, the more likely their friends will tend to escalate the severity of the action. Seems to be human nature here. |
That's why I think that while Dawkins might have been a dick for being overly sarcastic in his first post, Phil Plait is a bigger dick for jumping on the "man-hating feminism"-train instead of skeptically look at what is happening. His friendship with Rebecca is clouding his judgement and objectivity, and made him abandon his "Don't be a Dick"-philosophy.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 08:13:20 [Permalink]
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| I think what this whole situation prompted was a need for a" Skeptics Guide to Picking Up Women" book. It would be the same as any other "pick-up" book except the word "skeptic" could be thrown in there. |
Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 08:46:16 [Permalink]
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Mab:
In the video she said she felt creeped out by people who sexualize her, which isn't the same thing as the Elevator Guy being creepy. Especially since neither we nor Rebecca knew his true motivation for inviting her, he could just as well have been looking for something hot refreshing to drink and a nice chat. |
It's irrelevant what the guy's actual intentions were. RW was being asked to go to a strange guys hotel room at 4 in the morning after she made clear that she was tired and wanted to go to sleep. That should have been enough.
She didn't call him a creep. But she made clear, even in the video, that what he did was creepy, especially after the talk she gave. I think there is a whole lot of discounting about what RW felt. I think her request was reasonable. I think her wishes should be respected. Remove all of the static, and that's the bottom line.
Frankly, atheists, skeptics, you’re embarrassing as fuck
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 09:20:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
Mab:
In the video she said she felt creeped out by people who sexualize her, which isn't the same thing as the Elevator Guy being creepy. Especially since neither we nor Rebecca knew his true motivation for inviting her, he could just as well have been looking for something hot refreshing to drink and a nice chat. |
It's irrelevant what the guy's actual intentions were. RW was being asked to go to a strange guys hotel room at 4 in the morning after she made clear that she was tired and wanted to go to sleep. That should have been enough.
She didn't call him a creep. But she made clear, even in the video, that what he did was creepy, especially after the talk she gave. I think there is a whole lot of discounting about what RW felt. I think her request was reasonable. I think her wishes should be respected. Remove all of the static, and that's the bottom line.
Frankly, atheists, skeptics, you’re embarrassing as fuck
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That's a great piece you linked to Kil. I particularly like this part which is what I have been trying to say (not-so-eloquently)
Men often have trouble understanding what women feel. What would possess a man to use this situation as an excuse to tell the woman how she ought have felt rather than as an opportunity to listen to what she is attempting to communicate about how she actually felt and then try to understand it, is frankly an unforgivable degree of arrogance and self-entitlement. The feeling that he knows what the hell he’s talking about and these crazy womenfolk need to be set right.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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I do not like Rebecca Watson (aka skepchick)
