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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2011 : 22:33:36 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf
79% of all sexual assaults in 2009 were carried out by people known to the victim.
Pretty damaging to the idea that strangers pose a significant threat. If we go with 10% (I really don't know where that number came from) of men being sexual assault perpetrators, and 20% of them will attack a stranger, then you are down to 2% of men who will sexually assault a stranger.
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Apply the time dimension to this:
The 10% rapists don't rape women (or men or children) on a daily basis. There's quite a long average time between instances. Given how often people travel in elevators, how many people do it, and the time of exposure in one, what the favourite locations for rapists to commit their crime (which isn't elevators)... Those 2% have quickly dropped to the levels comparable to being struck by lightning.
Is the fear of being raped in an elevator reasonable?
Well, some people are afraid of being hit by lightning. If they let irrational or unreasonable fear dictate behaviour (or demand others to change their behaviour to accomodate), then we're closing in on phobia-territory.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2011 : 23:47:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Apply the time dimension to this:
The 10% rapists don't rape women (or men or children) on a daily basis. There's quite a long average time between instances. Given how often people travel in elevators, how many people do it, and the time of exposure in one, what the favourite locations for rapists to commit their crime (which isn't elevators)... Those 2% have quickly dropped to the levels comparable to being struck by lightning.
Is the fear of being raped in an elevator reasonable?
Well, some people are afraid of being hit by lightning. If they let irrational or unreasonable fear dictate behaviour (or demand others to change their behaviour to accomodate), then we're closing in on phobia-territory. |
Wow, you guys are just reversing the process of the typical risk assessment in order to dismiss Watson's feelings of being threatened. Just keep on ignoring the warning signs which made the apparent risk higher than the averages, why don't you? In other words, keep on ignoring the evidence that's staring you right in the face.
What the hell are you so afraid of that you feel the need to twist this around? Do you, Mab, really feel that you need to defend your right to proposition strange foreign women whom you've cornered without being perceived as a threat? That's all we're talking about here. Are you really so loathe to give that particular activity up that you need to paint Watson as an irrational, hysterical shrew? You're going to throw her under the bus so that you can feel good about doing something you'll probably never do in the first place? Or is your wife okay with that?
And unless you've got some contradictory data, you're going to have to think real hard about the risk assessment I provided already. In the US, at least, men sexually assault strange women more often than people die in car accidents. Yet you're not about to advocate for people to ignore simple driver-safety rules, are you?
The lightning comparison is even worse for your argument, since nobody says, "well, the chances of being struck by lightning are so incredibly slim, you don't need to worry about being outside during a storm." We don't tell people that they have irrational, unskeptical and/or hysterical fears when they come inside during a thunderstorm. It's simple damn common sense that to reduce your already small chance of getting zapped, you take shelter.
The odds of dying from a shark attack are even lower still, but nobody is going to say, "well, maybe the shark was just socially awkward," in response to people getting to safety fast when they see a fin slicing through the water.
I find it insane that you and Dude are even trying to dismiss the patently obvious non-zero risk Watson faced, compounded by Elevator Guy's own behavior. She probably didn't pepper spray the guy or kick him in the balls. She probably didn't call the cops or even hotel security. She hasn't even done anything to embarrass the guy personally. She said on the Internet, "don't do this" to other guys who might find themselves in the same situation. You think that's such an over-the-top reaction that you feel the need to complain that she is the one who freaked out? Look in a fucking mirror, and really think about whether the reaction you've had to what Rebecca Watson actually did is reasonable in light of the risks you face from her. What risk do you face from women like her, anyway? Why are you so defensive? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2011 : 23:49:57 [Permalink]
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Oh my! and it continues! Clearly this has a life of it's own. Taking all reports by anyone anywhere Rebecca did not get raped on that infamous elevator ride but it has produced an very ugly and evil baby.
I pray. "Grim Reaper your work awaits you and I will rejoice with your visit. Your arrival is long over due. End this thread or my life, I grow very weary." SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 06:47:49 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Wow, you guys are just reversing the process of the typical risk assessment in order to dismiss Watson's feelings of being threatened. |
No, I was just pointing out that Dude missed an aspect of the risk. It's inciedntal to Elevatorgate, a discussion I've grown sick of.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 07:08:03 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Or is your wife okay with that? |
She's been reading over my sholder from time to time while I've been reading various blogs, and she's seen Rebeccas video. And she too is wondering what the fuss is all about.
| And unless you've got some contradictory data, you're going to have to think real hard about the risk assessment I provided already. In the US, at least, men sexually assault strange women more often than people die in car accidents. |
That is just freaky, but possibly true even in Sweden. We must be living very sheltered lives.
I've read statistics that says that 5 times as many Americans are killed by drunkdrivers each year, than was killed in the WTC-attack. But your nation seems scared shitless by the threat of terrorists. So you have to excuse me if I have a hard time believing that there's a rationality to risk assessment in the general population.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 07:24:37 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, and there are all sorts of estimates for the under-reportage of sexual assaults in this country. It seems to be around 60%, which would bring the number of man-on-woman stranger sexual assaults up to 95.5 per day, or more frequent than fatal car crashes. |
I did this math wrong. 60% of sexual assaults going unreported means that the number we got from the stats Dude linked to represent 40% of all sexual assaults, so the total number of such assaults is 57.3×100/40 = 143.25 per day, so man-on-woman stranger sexual assaults are 59% more frequent than automobile fatalities. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 07:58:23 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
She's been reading over my sholder from time to time while I've been reading various blogs, and she's seen Rebeccas video. And she too is wondering what the fuss is all about. |
There shouldn't have been a fuss at all. It's self-evident to most people that if you don't want to be perceived as a threat, you shouldn't act in ways that others will perceive as a threat. Even Elevator Guy knew it to some extent, or he wouldn't have started out with "Don't take this the wrong way..." He should have stopped before he started.
Some people apparently think it's sexist to perceive strange men making advances to lone women in foreign countries in hotel elevators to be a threat at all, and they're raising a big stink about Rebecca Watson giving them unrequested advice about how to behave.
And then Dawkins came along and sarcastically suggested that women have bigger problems to worry about (as if women can't worry about both small and large problems at the same time), and that's when the shit really hit the fan out in the blogosphere.| That is just freaky, but possibly true even in Sweden. We must be living very sheltered lives. |
Umm, in 2009, Sweden had almost twice the per-capita rate of rape as the US, but Swedish rape law is very different from the US', and that probably explains the difference. Finland, Norway, Iceland and most of the rest of Europe all enjoy lower rates than the US, probably (I'm guessing) because the population isn't as sexually repressed as we are here. A recent study suggests that easier access to pornography leads to reduced rates of sexual assault, and porn here is very much taboo (for one example).| I've read statistics that says that 5 times as many Americans are killed by drunkdrivers each year, than was killed in the WTC-attack. But your nation seems scared shitless by the threat of terrorists. So you have to excuse me if I have a hard time believing that there's a rationality to risk assessment in the general population. |
Yes, that sort of inversion of relative risks is a problem. It's probably driven by the fact that drunk-driving fatalities don't often make the news, while 9/11 was the topic of discussion for several weeks.
Drunk driving deaths. In 2008, drunk driving was responsible for 471% as many deaths as there were immediate victims of 9/11. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 08:38:24 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Dave W.
Oh, and there are all sorts of estimates for the under-reportage of sexual assaults in this country. It seems to be around 60%, which would bring the number of man-on-woman stranger sexual assaults up to 95.5 per day, or more frequent than fatal car crashes. |
I did this math wrong. 60% of sexual assaults going unreported means that the number we got from the stats Dude linked to represent 40% of all sexual assaults, so the total number of such assaults is 57.3×100/40 = 143.25 per day, so man-on-woman stranger sexual assaults are 59% more frequent than automobile fatalities.
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Actually, the report I linked takes unreported (to police) assaults into consideration.
It combines the FBI crime statistics with another survey to get the numbers. At least I think I read that in the methodology.
| I find it insane that you and Dude are even trying to dismiss the patently obvious non-zero risk Watson faced, compounded by Elevator Guy's own behavior. |
No one is dismissing any risk, I'm saying that the risk is not what you claim it is. I characterize the non-zero risk of being robbed by a black man on the street as racism and you have no problem with that. Fear of being raped by a random stranger who exhibits innocuous behavior is a manifestation of sexism. Somehow you have a problem with that though.
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html
2009:
16,362 total arrests for rape.
100,496 total arrests for robbery. 55,742 of those arrested were black.
So, if 20% of rapes are committed by by strangers...
3273 arrests for rape by strangers.
The male/female victimology for robbery is evenly distributed (50/50). So 27,871 of those arrested for robbery robbed a woman.
You are, as a woman, 8.5 times more likely to be robbed by a black person than to be raped by a stranger.
Yet fear of being robbed by a black person is racism, and fear of being raped by a strange man is just good common sense.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 07/14/2011 08:39:28 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 09:44:50 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Actually, the report I linked takes unreported (to police) assaults into consideration.
It combines the FBI crime statistics with another survey to get the numbers. At least I think I read that in the methodology. |
Okay. The numbers don't substantially change my point. We can go find lots of things that are more or less risky, but your point is sexism, so the main issue must have to do with the sexes of those involved, and not whether rape is riskier than, say, getting hit by falling anvils or less risky than being robbed.| I find it insane that you and Dude are even trying to dismiss the patently obvious non-zero risk Watson faced, compounded by Elevator Guy's own behavior. |
No one is dismissing any risk, I'm saying that the risk is not what you claim it is. |
How is that not a dismissal?| I characterize the non-zero risk of being robbed by a black man on the street as racism and you have no problem with that. |
Because the risk of being robbed by a white man on the street is about the same. If you're talking racism, then the point must be about the race of the perpetrator, and there isn't a substantial difference in risk between white robbers and black robbers. So if someone is worried about being robbed, it is indeed racist to consider the threat to only or primarily come from black people.| Fear of being raped by a random stranger who exhibits innocuous behavior is a manifestation of sexism. |
His behavior was not "innocuous," but partially mimicked that of rapists.| Somehow you have a problem with that though. |
Because the risk from male and female rapists isn't even close to being equal.http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_43.html
2009:
16,362 total arrests for rape.
100,496 total arrests for robbery. 55,742 of those arrested were black.
So, if 20% of rapes are committed by by strangers...
3273 arrests for rape by strangers.
The male/female victimology for robbery is evenly distributed (50/50). So 27,871 of those arrested for robbery robbed a woman.
You are, as a woman, 8.5 times more likely to be robbed by a black person than to be raped by a stranger. |
Given the racial disparity in arrests, you face about an equal risk of being robbed by a black person or a white person.
Given that 99% of sexual assaults are committed by men, you are 99 times more likely to be raped by a man than you are by a woman.
(Edited to add that given that 80% of sexual assault victims are female, the odds that a man will rape a woman are 396 times higher than the odds that a woman will rape a man.)
Yes, the risk of being raped by anyone is lower than the risk of being robbed on the street (by anyone), but you can't base a conclusion of sexism on that. Perhaps you could call it "rapism," or a bias to dismiss the risk of being robbed.
But when you find yourself in a situation in which there are warning signs that suggest that your risk of being sexually assaulted is higher than normal, it is justifiable to be "uncomfortable" or "creeped out."
The factors that one should take into account when trying to determine one's risk of being assaulted include (but are not limited to) the sex of the potential perpetrator, one's own sex, one's location, one's access to escape routes, whether or not the potential perpetrator is thinking about sex, whether or not the potential perp has empathy towards the potential victim, etc.. Using rates of arrest as one's metric for risk does not allow one to take into account many of the factors which are associated with rapes and rapists.Yet fear of being robbed by a black person is racism, and fear of being raped by a strange man is just good common sense.
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You keep on comparing apples to oranges in calculating differential risk, and you go ahead and keep on ignoring the modus operandi of rapists, if those blind spots of yours keep you feeling righteously indignant about Rebecca Watson daring to suggest that you should avoid acting like a creep, Dude. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 10:52:28 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| Yes, the risk of being raped by anyone is lower than the risk of being robbed on the street (by anyone), but you can't base a conclusion of sexism on that. Perhaps you could call it "rapism," or a bias to dismiss the risk of being robbed. |
I broke the numbers down by race and sex. I am assuming that unreported robberies are similar in % of total robberies to the % or unreported rapes.
The victimization report, from an earlier link, indicates that robberies are evenly distributed across gender. So I used only the 50% of robberies that are perpetrated against women and perpetrated by black people.
That gives women an 8.5 times greater chance of being robbed by a black man than of being raped by a stranger.
If fear of being robbed by a black person, which happens to women 8.5 times more often than rape by a stranger, is racism.... then how is fear of being raped by a stranger not sexism? Are you now saying that the rate of a specific crime is not relevant when discussing risk and justifiable fear?
Then there is your continued mischaracterization of elevator guy's behavior. Taken in total you can't say that he mimicked the behavior of a rapist, Watson's description of his behavior clearly indicates that he responded appropriately to rejection. You also have to assume several things, like him being a native speaker of English, that he is a US citizen, that he was present for and heard her public announcement of wanting to be left alone and go to sleep, that he followed her to the elevator, that he is not from a culture where personal space is measured differently than we do, that his cultural norms are the same as yours..... so in total, going only by the evidence presented, you can't conclude anything except that he responded properly to her rejection.
So with the evidence in hand, actual stats about sexual assault rates and who is perpetrating them against strangers, the evidence (without assumption and embellishment) about EG's behavior in total, the conclusion is simple. Watson's reaction is a manifestation of her personal sexist attitude towards men and Plait's hysterical reaction is an example of how easy it is to abandon critical thinking when emotions are involved.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 11:36:07 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
I broke the numbers down by race and sex. I am assuming that unreported robberies are similar in % of total robberies to the % or unreported rapes.
The victimization report, from an earlier link, indicates that robberies are evenly distributed across gender. So I used only the 50% of robberies that are perpetrated against women and perpetrated by black people.
That gives women an 8.5 times greater chance of being robbed by a black man than of being raped by a stranger. |
It also gives women an 8.5 times greater chance of being robbed by a white man than of being raped by a stranger. The odds that people of either race will rob a woman are equal, so if a woman considers men from one race to be less threatening as robbers, she would be acting contradictory to the evidence, due to racism. This isn't difficult.| If fear of being robbed by a black person, which happens to women 8.5 times more often than rape by a stranger, is racism.... |
Fear of being robbed by a black man is racism because robbers are evenly distributed among the races. It's not racism because it doesn't happen frequently in general, it's racism because it doesn't happen more frequently among blacks.| ...then how is fear of being raped by a stranger not sexism? |
Because it wasn't just a stranger. Watson is a woman and EG is a man, placing them in the most common category of stranger sexual assaults (there are 396 times more assaults in that category than if their roles were reversed). Watson was a woman in a foreign country, increasing the risk to her. Watson was a woman alone, also increasing the risk to her. She was also a woman without an escape route, further compounding the risk. EG was dismissive towards her, showing a lack of empathy, still further increasing the risk to Watson.| Are you now saying that the rate of a specific crime is not relevant when discussing risk and justifiable fear? |
Of course not.| Then there is your continued mischaracterization of elevator guy's behavior. Taken in total you can't say that he mimicked the behavior of a rapist... |
No, I can say that he did some things which rapists also do.| ...Watson's description of his behavior clearly indicates that he responded appropriately to rejection. |
Where did she ever describe his response to rejection?| You also have to assume several things, like him being a native speaker of English, that he is a US citizen, that he was present for and heard her public announcement of wanting to be left alone and go to sleep, that he followed her to the elevator, that he is not from a culture where personal space is measured differently than we do, that his cultural norms are the same as yours... |
No, none of those things are in evidence, so I assume nothing about them. I also have no evidence that he wasn't a native English speaker. I do have evidence that he was aware of what she'd been talking about "nonstop," and his request for sex clearly dismissed what she'd been saying.| ...so in total, going only by the evidence presented, you can't conclude anything except that he responded properly to her rejection. |
You can't even say that he did that!| So with the evidence in hand, actual stats about sexual assault rates and who is perpetrating them against strangers... |
Facts: women are four times more likely to be victims of sexual assault than men, and men are 99 times more likely to commit sexual assault than women. Facts: rapists try to get their victims alone and trapped. Fact: people in foreign countries are more likely to be victims of crimes than natives. Fact: Elevator Guy was asking for sex from a lone, trapped woman in a country foreign to her, while being dismissive of what she'd been saying.| ...the evidence (without assumption and embellishment)... |
Then quit hypocritically talking about EG's response to rejection.| ...about EG's behavior in total, the conclusion is simple. |
Yes, he came across as threatening, period.| Watson's reaction is a manifestation of her personal sexist attitude towards men... |
Watson's reaction was nothing more than to feel threatened. Again, she didn't feel so threatened that she went for a preemptory attack, nor did she report him to authorities (so far as we know). If she'd done anything more than feel threatened, I might agree with you that she went nuts.
But you've got no evidence that the threat she felt was greater than warranted by the situation as it actually occurred, because you can't read her mind. Perhaps she felt threatened, but 7.5 times less threatened than she does every time she walks down the street (above average for rape, but below average for robbery). You can't say how much of a threat feeling is too much, but you feel entitled to dismiss her feeling threatened at all.| ...and Plait's hysterical reaction is an example of how easy it is to abandon critical thinking when emotions are involved. |
Plait's reaction was this:...Being alone in an elevator with a man late at night is uncomfortable for any woman, even if the man is silent. But when he hits on her? There’s no way to avoid a predatory vibe here, and that’s unacceptable. A situation like this can lead to sexual assault... No all-caps stuff, no extra exclamation points, no unjustifiable adjectives. If that's "hysteria" then you're in hysterics yourself, Dude, still, and should really try to calm down.
You're clearly saying that he's wrong. But wrong about what? That we can easily avoid a "predatory vibe?" That it should be acceptable? That a situation like that cannot lead to sexual assault? What? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 13:10:21 [Permalink]
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Dave_W said:
| You can't even say that he did that! |
Given that she bothered to mention she was hit on in an elevator, it would be pertinent to the situation if the guy had not acted appropriately to her rejection. Do you think it reasonable to say that she would have left it out if he had not?
And actually, the rate of arrests for robbery by black people is higher than the rate of arrests for robbery by white people. If you don't assume racism or race bias by police in making arrests, then there is a greater threat of robbery from a black person. 55% of robbery arrests are black people, 42% are white people.
So you are legitimately at greater risk of being robbed by a black person. But crossing the street to avoid them is racism.
Given the small chance of being raped by a stranger, it isn't sexism to be afraid of all strange men.
According to you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2011 : 14:38:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dude
Given that she bothered to mention she was hit on in an elevator, it would be pertinent to the situation if the guy had not acted appropriately to her rejection. Do you think it reasonable to say that she would have left it out if he had not? |
She didn't mention him having an accent or standing too close or any hint at any of the other little excuses you are trying to give the guy, either. You don't get to pick unevidenced assumptions just because they seem "reasonable" when you're specifically claiming that Watson is reacting unreasonably to the guy you're making assumptions about.| And actually, the rate of arrests for robbery by black people is higher than the rate of arrests for robbery by white people. If you don't assume racism or race bias by police in making arrests, then there is a greater threat of robbery from a black person. 55% of robbery arrests are black people, 42% are white people. |
I don't know why you would want to assume something for which there is clearly contradictory evidence.| So you are legitimately at greater risk of being robbed by a black person. But crossing the street to avoid them is racism. |
Even if the rates were that different, it would warrant a relative increase in one's "threat level" of 30.1% when looking at a random black person. Is that enough to warrant crossing the street? I don't think so, since the threat is small to begin with. It makes the per-capita rate of being robbed 0.9 victims per 1000 people for white perps, versus 1.2/1000 for black perps.
The difference in threat posed by men and women as far as sexual assault of a female stranger goes is 9,900%. The victimization rates for sexual assault would be 0.495 victims per 1000 people for male perps, compared to 0.005 victims per 1000 people for female perps.
(These rate numbers come from the BJS report you linked to, adjusted for race and sex differences. Using arrest rates for comparing incident rates is pretty bad, since most sexual assaults are reported, and so most rapists aren't arrested. You've shown that the number of arrested rapists is 8.5 times lower than the number of arrested robbers, but the number of sexual assault victims is almost 25% of the number of robbery victims. It's dismissive towards what matters here, which is rates of victimization. Unfortunately, the BJS report doesn't have details on the race of perpetrators of the crimes it lists, so the arrest rate will have to do as a proxy for racial differences in robberies.)
Who cares if the risk of being sexually assaulted at all is less than the risk of being robbed? Being faced with someone who is behaving in a way that signals rape more than it does robbery changes the equation. All you're toying with here are averages, in an attempt to dismiss the specifics.| Given the small chance of being raped by a stranger, it isn't sexism to be afraid of all strange men. |
Given the incredibly tiny chance of being killed by a shark, is it unreasonable to get out of the water when you see a fin? Is it hysterical to come inside during a thunderstorm, for fear of lightning?
More to the point, am I being irrational by placing my wallet in my front pants pocket, where it is safer from being lifted, when pickpocketing happens only 25% as often as robberies? Or is that a proportionate response to the threat? Yes, it's four times more likely that I'll be robbed than that I'll be pickpocketed, but I don't know what I can do to protect myself from robbers (especially not armed robbers), while I can do something to foil pickpockets. So I do it. Similarly, are women who opt for a backpack instead of a purse irrational to do so if the reason is to prevent purse snatchings (same category as pickpockets)?
Besides, who are you to say what is or isn't a proportional response to a strange man doing something creepy? You don't think he did anything creepy at all, but that seems to be based on pure denial instead of any sort of argument or evidence. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2011 : 21:00:39 [Permalink]
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Well, I spend much of today reading this thread, and I am now very very depressed. If I had been in Watson's place during the elevator incident, I think I would have felt the same, although I don't know if I would have ever bothered to mention it publicly. But that's just because I've come to take it for granted that I will have to put up with unwanted sexual advances by men, especially in places where women are the minority and many of the men are lacking in social skills. And sorry, but skeptic/atheist conferences definitely are such places. I remember being at one of my first conferences and talking to some guy who literally stared at my chest the entire time I spoke to him (okay, he occasionally glanced into my eyes). It made me feel quite uncomfortable and creeped out, even though I certainly didn't fear him. And reading all this, I have to admit that part of the reason I don't even think to complain about this sort of stuff (if I talk about it at all, I make a joke of it) is because I just take it for granted.
But what's really making me depressed about this conversation is that it forces me to realize that I also take rape and sexual abuse of women and fear of it for granted. I remember the first time I accepted a ride from a new friend in college. He was a man, and we were on our way to a poetry reading. It was only after I was already in the car and he was driving that it occurred to me that it might not be the best idea to be alone in a car with a man I've only known for a couple weeks. Nothing happened, and we became close friends, but the point is that women live with these thoughts as a regular part of our lives.
And it isn't paranoia. My freshman year of college I first heard the stats about 1 in 5 women being raped. I thought it sounded ridiculous. I was sure this was an overblown statistic. Today I can say that 1 in 4 of my close, female friends has been raped. Dave compared the frequency of women being raped by strangers to car accident fatalities, and indeed, I know 3 women who were raped by total strangers (one was a college student who was literally raped by a stranger who just walked into her dorm room, closed the door, and raped her. She never even saw his face.) But I only know one person who was killed in a car accident. And when I read a thread like this, it gets me thinking, and I realize how much I just accept that rape and reasonable fear of rape as a part of the female experience. And how fucked up is that? I only know one male friend who has been beaten up badly enough by strangers to go the hospital, but I know several women who were date raped, one raped by her step-father, one sexually abused by her brother, and one who even got an abortion after being drugged and raped at a party. I even know of one older relative who was raped by her own husband. None of these women I know ever filed charges. Few ever got medical aid or formal counseling. They just live with it, and I live with knowing these things happened to them, and that it could just as well happen to me or any other woman/girl I know and love. It is too much to think about this shit. It is just too much! I fucking need to take it all in stride and push it away emotionally, or I'll lose my fucking mind. So, please, can those of you who are all pissed off at the supposed "man-hater" feminists consider for a moment that maybe their over-reaction to this incident is part of their way of coping with this pretty hideous reality we women live with?
I'm a feminist. Two things make me a feminist: I believe in equal opportunities for women and I am willing to take action to gain and maintain those equal opportunities. That's all a feminist is, so it really pisses me off when people bitch about "feminism" and use terms like "femi-Nazis". It is fucking lazy bullshit to disparage feminism because of what some people do or say in its name. Yes, yes, statements like "All men are potential rapists" are horrible. They do harm and no good. They don't speak for all feminists. Feminism is why I and my daughter and my mom and aunts get to own property and go to college and aspire to any career that we're intellectually and physically capable of doing. Feminism is why maybe some day in the future we'll maybe have the same earning potential as men. It's a nice goal.
While I believe in equal opporunity, I'm not ignorant enough to think that women and men are the same. Women and men tend to have different perspectives, both because of certain biological differences, as well as because of differences in the way we are raised and treated by others. These differences are why I would never get drunk at a party by myself, but my brother feels fine about it. Generalizations never apply to every individuals, but they are useful because they apply to most. Ideals are all good and well, but we all do have to live in the real world, too. It sucks that men have to feel as if they are under suspicion even when they've done nothing wrong, and it sucks that women have to feel fear in many relatively innocuous situations, but I don't see how either can be avoided when the rates of sexual abuses of women are as high as they are.
Nothing that Watson, Plait, or Dawkins said/wrote upsets or offends me. I can see where all three of them had a valid message, but could also be validly criticized, depending on how I look at it and what I emphasize. To get all riled up about any of that seems to me to be splitting hairs and missing what is really important about the conversation. It seems that many people are either too emotionally upset or more interested in showing off their own intellect than actually communicating about this issue and actually understanding where all the different perspectives are coming from. The simple fact that this small incident brought up by Watson has generated so much, and so much hot-headed discussion tells me that there are a lot of strong emotions surrounding the issue and that maybe those emotions should be addressed and done so with a certain amount of sensitivity. I suspect that much of the hostility toward Plait and Watson stems to some degree from men who are sick of being perceived as potential predators. I suspect that much of the over-reactions of Watson's "supporters" comes from anger and fear over real incidents of sexual abuse.
And then there are people who just want to over-logic the whole damned thing and pretend that emotions don't matter. So much that is being argued about isn't facts. It's tone and emphasis and interpretation. Yes, Dawkins's statement of A is worse than B therefore B can be dismissed is a dumb argument. But WHY did he comment what he did? The point is that he felt Watson's objection to elevator guy's proposition was trivial. Other people heard Watson's complaint and made associations with worse incidents, but who cares if they over-react since elevator guy remains totally anonymous? The point is peoples' feelings in response to Watson's story. What does that strong response tell us about men-women relations, and women's experiences with flirting/being hit on? Why does someone have to be right and someone wrong in this discussion at all? This isn't a damn debate about whether the theory of evolution is true, or whether the earth is billions of years old or not.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 07/18/2011 21:06:30 |
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Ebone4rock
SFN Regular
USA
894 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 06:00:13 [Permalink]
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Marf,
I totally dig your view on this subject. You bring up a few things that I think many men need to be made aware of. The thing that has stood out to me the most through this whole fiasco is how obvious it is that so many men lack the skill to communicate with women effectively. (it really is different than communicating with men no matter how much people try to rationalize it) It's like women are aliens to them or something. I really shouldn't be too surprised though because this type of miscommunication is the basis for pretty much every TV comedy we've ever seen.
Originally posted by marfknox
| especially in places where women are the minority and many of the men are lacking in social skills. And sorry, but skeptic/atheist conferences definitely are such places. |
LOL. Yep, spending your adolescence and early adulthood in Mom's basement playing Dungeons & Dragons is not a good way to learn real-life social skills.
| While I believe in equal opporunity, I'm not ignorant enough to think that women and men are the same. Women and men tend to have different perspectives, both because of certain biological differences, as well as because of differences in the way we are raised and treated by others. |
I think this is an important point to pound through the over-rationalizers skulls because it results in this
| And then there are people who just want to over-logic the whole damned thing and pretend that emotions don't matter. |
My advice to these men in to listen to the women, don't just talk at them.
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Haole with heart, thats all I'll ever be. I'm not a part of the North Shore society. Stuck on the shoulder, that's where you'll find me. Digging for scraps with the kooks in line. -Offspring |
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I do not like Rebecca Watson (aka skepchick)
