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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2011 : 16:58:45 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Judge Bromley circa 1612
Thanks everyone for getting back to me. Valiant dancer do you have evidence to back up your claim that Hep B, C and D can't be passed on by Garra ruffa fish? Has there been testing to verify this ? Also Hep A and E are , as far as I am aware, passed on through oral transmission . How have things worked out in the US and Canada regarding this therapy is is still used or have some States and Provinces in Canada, in the US. , banned it?
Thanks for the information regarding leech therapy .
Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( the witches' and pseudoscientist' friend)
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I have the universal protocols which specifically state that Hep B and C have a very limited temperature range in which they can live. The fish, being cold blooded, do not have the temperature to be able to maintain the Hep B and C viruses. It is a bit of supposition. MRSA is a much more hardy virus and is far more likely to be transferred than Hep. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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bngbuck
SFN Addict
USA
2437 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2011 : 23:26:12 [Permalink]
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Dave.....
| What sorts of germs aren't killed reliably by bleach? |
From PubMed.com. There's more.
| Although NaOCl pH 10.6 showed satisfactory disinfectant activity under clean conditions, our results indicate that formulations at this pH should not be used where sporicidal action is required or where substantial organic soiling is anticipated. |
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 03:15:58 [Permalink]
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Would be grateful if you could supply me with a link to the protocols you mention Valiant. Dave mentioned about bleach and endospores, which are a bit more hary and resistant to destruction,is there evidence out there it could be passed on?
I'm also concerend about people suffering from eczema using this therapy as the tend to have plaques of hard skin in between these hard plaques are areas of very thin skin which bleeds readily.
Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( iconoclast , militant skeptic and radical atheist ) |
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 03:19:16 [Permalink]
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Sorry Valiant you stated "It is a bit of supposition. MRSA is a much more hardy virus and is far more likely to be transferred than Hep."
By the way just to point out that MRSA is a bacteria : Mehtycillin resistan Staph Auereus, couldn't let you get away with that.
Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( iconoclast , militant skeptic and radical atheist) |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 06:13:34 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Judge Bromley circa 1612
Would be grateful if you could supply me with a link to the protocols you mention Valiant. Dave mentioned about bleach and endospores, which are a bit more hary and resistant to destruction,is there evidence out there it could be passed on?
I'm also concerend about people suffering from eczema using this therapy as the tend to have plaques of hard skin in between these hard plaques are areas of very thin skin which bleeds readily.
Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( iconoclast , militant skeptic and radical atheist )
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http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/bbp/universal.html
And I recognize that MRSA is not a virus. However it is the kind of condition that I would be more concerned about transferrence. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 11:23:54 [Permalink]
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Why did you say it was . A slip of the tongue( hand ) perhaps? I have been on enough courses about the prevention of cross infection and probably could supply you with information about it. However I am not so arrogant as to believe you are rying to give an argument from authority .
ps will look at the article when I have time
Best wishes Judge.
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 15:08:38 [Permalink]
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Looking at yet more evidence I think I would be more concerned with Hepatitis B: Zinsser Microbiology (1976) page 1013 states Hep B survives 60 centigrade for up to 6 hours. I have not , up to press, found any other sources to indicate its survival time.
DNJB states: "We are thinking of 125 fish per tank, water at 30 degrees C and a pH of 7…after each 15 minute treatment, no clients would enter the same tank again for at least another 15 minutes. Additional food in the evenings and in the morning would be in algae pill form…":http://www.petforums.co.uk/fish-keeping-chat/133514-garra-rufa-fish-2.html
Not sure if the filtration systems within the tanks used are up to the job of filtering out viral particles. From the above sources it would seem to indicate there could be cause for concern regarding said virus surviving long enough for it to be passed on.
Victorian Government Health Information sates: The disease can be spread by:
Sharing equipment used for injecting drugs.
Piercing the skin with equipment which is not properly cleaned and sterilised.
Sharing razor blades or toothbrushes.
One person's blood coming into contact with open cuts on another person.
Found at :http://www.health.vic.gov.au/ideas/diseases/hepb
Just some facts that people when considering to use this therapy shoud be aware of.
Bast wishes everyone, Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( iconoclast , militant skeptic and radical atheist)
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 19:12:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Judge Bromley circa 1612
Why did you say it was . A slip of the tongue( hand ) perhaps? I have been on enough courses about the prevention of cross infection and probably could supply you with information about it. However I am not so arrogant as to believe you are rying to give an argument from authority .
ps will look at the article when I have time
Best wishes Judge.
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A misstatement showing I was more concerned with conditions that could be passed vs viruses.
The issue I see it the point of infection.
It is more likely that MRSA will be transferred to other users vs Hep. Hep needs an open wound for a fluid to fluid transfer.
Again, I cite the universal precautions document and training I have been subjected to over 22 years.
15 minutes according to research is inadequate.
Again, the recipient must have an open wound.
http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/index.htm
This source indicates the following.
Hep A - potentially months
Hep B - 7 days
Hep C - 4 days (at room temperature, 16 hours)
Hep D - requires the existence of Hep B
Hep E - Similar to A
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2011 : 06:41:56 [Permalink]
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I never denied possibility. I questioned probability. The protocols you supplied later are inadequate to completely eliminate possibility. I still question probability. As MRSA does not require an open wound to become a real pain in the neck, it is still more probable that MRSA will be transferred than Hep series infections.
Both of these indicate that the re-use of these fish violate hygenic and medical protocols to elimiate the probability of cross-contamination of clients/patients. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Judge Bromley circa 1612
New Member
United Kingdom
43 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2011 : 10:25:55 [Permalink]
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The links I supply are not protocols they are intended to show just what the difference is between a virus and a bacteria. It is many years since I studied the subject and admit I am quite rusty on certain aspects of virology and bacterialogy. That is why I have given the links, to refresh my own, probably failing memory, and to help others not so conversant in the subject.I am just going back to basics. I hope that is OK?
I feel as though we are having a game of ping pong Valiant. It is not my intention to get into a point scoring exercise, which is ultimately futile, but to make people aware of the problems which may arise if they use garra ruffa fish therapy.
I really do now hold my head when someone informs me they are considering using it. I do what I can and point out the problems I have stated but ultimately it is up to them whether they go ahead and use it.It's really the things I don't know about this treatment that worry me.
In the fullness of time the Health Protection Agency will undoubtedly report back to the powers that be , over here, and a decision will be made whether to ban it or regulate it. Thankfully the decision is not mine to make.
I believe an informed choice is always a better choice.
Best wishes to all especially Valiant Dancer.
Judge Edward Bromley circa 1612, ( just about holding on to my sanity)
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What about garra ruffa fish therapy
