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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2011 : 15:17:28 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
I am not against manned spaceflight where warranted, but that warrant is getting smaller with every advance in robotics. And the cost savings are enormous. If anyone would care to calculate what it would have taken to obtain the science done by Spirit and Opportunity on the surface of Mars by replacing them with people, I'm willing to bet that most people would be knocked on their asses.
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What I feel is important is the colonization of elsewhere.
Presently, we have all eggs on one basket. One bad asteroid hit and humanity is gone. I want to see at least one extra-terrestrial colony, preferably two which are self-reliant and can go on if something bad happens.
Just consider how much could have been done with a fraction of USA's defence budget today...  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 02:06:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
The risk to human life is something you have to face when exploration is being done. Nobody was forced to go.
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I'm not on board with this whole "They want to go" point. Of course they were not forced. Just because you have volunteers, it doesn't mean you can play Russian roulette.
The more important argument is that taxpayers were forced to foot the bill for something that was basically a waste of money. Most of the cost goes toward ensuring that the human occupants are safe and healthy during the voyage, and the science that they accomplish is negligible. Unmanned vehicles only work on sunlight and/or a small nuclear reactor. They can wait patiently for years, or even decades, to get close to their target if necessary, no boredom, no insanity from looking at the same faces all the time. |
I'm curious, what are the risks of launching a nuclear device on the back of a chemical rocket? But I agree with your point on unmanned exploration.
Can you imagine being a human on the sort of mission it takes to rendezvous with a comet or asteroid, or one of the outer planets? Cruel and unusual punishment in my opinion. The only thing you will learn is how long it takes for insanity to take over.
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even if they volunteer? 
I am not against manned spaceflight where warranted, but that warrant is getting smaller with every advance in robotics. And the cost savings are enormous. If anyone would care to calculate what it would have taken to obtain the science done by Spirit and Opportunity on the surface of Mars by replacing them with people, I'm willing to bet that most people would be knocked on their asses.
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It's pretty hard to compare since humans are way more versatile. But if you compared cost to benefit I think the rovers did an amazing job.
What I feel is important is the colonization of elsewhere.
Presently, we have all eggs on one basket. One bad asteroid hit and humanity is gone. I want to see at least one extra-terrestrial colony, preferably two which are self-reliant and can go on if something bad happens.
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I have some problems with this too. Having self sufficient extra-terrestrial colonies would obviously be good (unless they rebelled and started an interplanetary war...). But the whole idea is totally implausible with today's technology, I mean we are not even close. You would need a suitable destination, you would need to be able to launch massive amounts of supplies and equipment into space and you would need some method of shielding the crew from radiation, to name but a few problems...
I think a far cheaper method would be to create several bunkers on Earth that could protect people from an extinction event. I think this is entirely plausible, given our current technology. |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 05:32:10 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
It's pretty hard to compare since humans are way more versatile. But if you compared cost to benefit I think the rovers did an amazing job.
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I'm not certain that the versatility of humans is much of a selling point any more, robotics are getting even better than they are now, sooner or later there will be no argument for humans as far as I can see. But it was an issue in the early days. If Neil Armstrong hadn't taken control of Eagle at the last moment the autoland was going to drop them into a boulder field where they may have tipped over and crashed. But that is really only a concern with humans on board, because you have to land gently to avoid injury, and then take off again. With a robot you can just use those giant airbags that have become fashionable and smack into the surface, roll a bit and stop, then deploy. And unless you're running a sample return mission you can just leave it there.
Manned spaceflight isn't going away because it's so expensive, it's going away because robotics are so much cheaper. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 13:05:33 [Permalink]
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lA robot could not have fixed Hubble. There were many space shuttle missions that required humans to pull them off. Cost vs. benefit? I dunno... What do you think the international space station is worth, or Hubble? How do you even measure the advancements in our knowledge of space science that Hubble has delivered on? It would have stopped working years ago if not for the shuttle...
We had to start somewhere. And we would probably have had something better even now if there had been funding for it.
Call it a death trap and call it a lemon. But geez some good science happened because we had it.
And I too would have gone if given the chance.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 15:16:04 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
A robot could not have fixed Hubble. |
True, but it shouldn't have needed fixing in the first place. There were undoubtedly some servicing missions that needed people, but many of the flights were just another exercise in sending humans up, keeping them alive, and bringing them down. We were doing that in 1961.
Originally posted by Kil
And I too would have gone if given the chance. |
As would I. |
Bailey's second law; There is no relationship between the three virtues of intelligence, education, and wisdom.
You fiend! Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church? - The Bishop of Bath and Wells, Blackadder II
Baculum's page: http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=3947338590 |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2011 : 18:27:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by The Rat
Originally posted by On fire for Christ
It's pretty hard to compare since humans are way more versatile. But if you compared cost to benefit I think the rovers did an amazing job.
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I'm not certain that the versatility of humans is much of a selling point any more, robotics are getting even better than they are now, sooner or later there will be no argument for humans as far as I can see.
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I can see versatility still being a big factor. A human being can simply pick up a rock and examine it, break it, take a sample, dig a hole, anything you want. The mars rovers had very limited capabilities and were confined by the amount of power their solar cells could provide, they were also limited by the risk of them falling or getting stuck. Of course you could throw more money at it, but when you add more complexity to robotics, the failure rate increases.
I'm not trying to be funny here but his blog entry sucks compared to mine. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2011 : 01:40:32 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
I'm not trying to be funny here but his blog entry sucks compared to mine.
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PZ has a bit higher blogging frequency than you have. His time does not allow for more. If you had as little time, I'm sure yours would suck more.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2011 : 14:37:40 [Permalink]
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| Yeah he's probably way too busy helping people.... |
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alienist
Skeptic Friend
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2011 : 15:09:45 [Permalink]
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| Hmmmm... Blog envy? |
The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well! - Joe Ancis |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2011 : 15:21:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by On fire for Christ
Yeah he's probably way too busy helping people....
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Actually, he included useful links that also linked to pages where I learned a lot. He didn't have to say much.
I learned a great deal more moving from his site to other useful pages than I could ever have learned from what you wrote. But don't feel too badly. After all, you used more words... I know how hard it is to write an article, so I'll give you that. At least your shuttle blog wasn't full of, well... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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On fire for Christ
SFN Regular
Norway
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2011 : 01:58:16 [Permalink]
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| mine also had more pictures. |
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Decommissioning of the flying death trap AKA...
