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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2011 : 07:08:11
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http://www.ocregister.com/news/bible-317251-gleason-say.html
Members of a grassroots atheist group say they will tear out pages of the Bible at the Huntington Beach pier Saturday to point out what they say is immorality in the book many Christians base their faith on.
Backyard Skeptics members plan to rip out pages with specific passages of the Bible that they say portray immoral biblical law, organizers say. |
I think this just feeds the persecution complex of the Christians...perhaps they should have books from all the major religions and give equal treatment.
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 07:51:22 [Permalink]
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Ray Comfort seems to agree with you:“I would seriously like to supply them with a Koran and maybe something Hindu,” he said. “If he wants to make a statement about God, he should spread it around a little and not pick on Christians.” |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2011 : 08:59:33 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Ray Comfort seems to agree with you:“I would seriously like to supply them with a Koran and maybe something Hindu,” he said. “If he wants to make a statement about God, he should spread it around a little and not pick on Christians.”
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But for different reasons. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:25:58 [Permalink]
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| I don't see how this achieves anything positive. Man! the shit some people do. Someone should show up with a sign saying "They're Dicks". SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:36:56 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
Someone should show up with a sign saying "They're Dicks". |
Seems like that would be hypocritical. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:38:16 [Permalink]
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I agree this is a stupid stunt in that it really doesn't accomplish the stated purpose, and it will probably achieve opposite ends. The best we in the freethought community can hope for is that these idiots will be ignored and not cause any damage.
Man, there are so many better ways, much more direct and relevant to today, to point out flaws in Christian morality. Destroying Bibles is so indirect. Most people won't even look at it far enough to care about the explanation. Most people think the Bible says mostly nice things. Most Christians haven't even read the damn thing. Argh. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/16/2011 11:38:41 |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:39:53 [Permalink]
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| I imagine as Atheism continues to grow in popularity we'll sadly see more of this kind of crap. There is power in numbers, but the problem with popularity is that it tends to attract a lot of less than ideal specimens to the movement. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/16/2011 11:40:36 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 12:27:29 [Permalink]
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| The type of people who won't pay attention to the explanation are the type of people who think atheists burn kittens for their Black Sabbaths, anyway. Offending them more than they're already offended by their fantasies would be difficult. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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sailingsoul
SFN Addict
2830 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 14:23:44 [Permalink]
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| For those offended and angered it can act to confirm their derogatory beliefs about atheists as a whole. This should go to remind us we should guard to not do the same toward Theists. I never took that Koran burning minister as anything more than a single zealot making news. Either acts are a far cry from shooting down someone in church on Sunday or bombing a Mosque during prayers. All are different levels of extremism. It's sad that shit is inevitable these days. I can't imagine this ever ending but it would be nice if it did. I suppose we should be grateful for the days it doesn't. SS |
There are only two types of religious people, the deceivers and the deceived. SS |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 21:31:31 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by sailingsoul
For those offended and angered it can act to confirm their derogatory beliefs about atheists as a whole. |
For those steeped in faith as a virtue, they need no confirmation other than what their preachers or Bibles tell them, regardless of how atheists actually behave.
Really, a bunch of atheists ripping a few pages out of the Old Testament law books (which should upset Jews and Muslims as much as it does Christians, for those worried about equal opportunity taunting) cannot possibly do as much PR damage to the atheist "cause" as, for example, FOX News' idiotic annual "War on Christmas" nonsense, the World Nut Daily's regular demonization of atheists, or any number of real-life occurrences in which people who value a secular government are branded as baby-eating, god-hating atheists (including, for example, Tammy Kitmiller).
No amount of "bad" behavior on the part of atheists towards religion is going to make the pile of crap we're buried under higher faster than the boatloads of shit dumped on us every day by the religious - including the otherwise liberal religious who think that "belief in belief" is so vital to society that we evil atheists must hate America.
But - and this is the important part - all the publicity this act will generate will get some people to think. They'll understand that ripping pages out of a book that the rippers presumably legally own neither picks anyone's pocket nor breaks anyone's leg (to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson), and they will be the ones to start to think about what these protesters are doing. One, maybe more, will have been "on the fence" about the whole thing, and will wind up coming over to our side.
That is how these sorts of acts benefit us. The people who get all upset about people "desecrating" a Bible are lost to us already. The people who see this thing happen and decide to get off the fence and fully join the religious were not likely to join us, either, if they're so focused on the tone instead of the message (really: there are zillions of patient, nice atheism resources available, so if they haven't been convinced by those already, they're not likely to be, ever). And, of course, if an atheist sees the page-ripping and decides to jump ship because of it, then it can't have been atheism that made them an atheist, can it?
So the group of people who will reject atheism because of stunts like this is more-or-less already known. It consists of people who are unlikely to ever be atheists or to look upon us kindly, anyway. So the important question is how many will be prompted by this act to embrace atheism? If the answer is "one or more," then it will be a success. Baby steps.
And that's why noisy, rude stuff like this page-ripping thing, "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day" and PZ Myers' wafer destruction should be encouraged and supported. In worrying about negative publicity, you're worrying about something that's already lost (the horses escaped the barn over a thousand years ago, in fact).
Look instead to the positive case where these things do, in fact, increase our numbers. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 13:19:50 [Permalink]
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Dave, you make some great points and put up a pretty convincing argument. I'm not 100% convinced, but you at least have me reconsidering. The biggest problem I have with this stunt is that it:
1.) Adds to the importance of Christianity by giving that religion any special attention at all.
2.) Is way too generalized. It is not responding to any specific atrocity. It is not directing its criticism to any particular sect. It is just a generalized attack on the holy book of a whole collection of pretty dissimilar religious groups who interpret that book in pretty dissimilar ways.
In short, this just seems like a pretty lame stunt, regardless of whether it offends anyone or not. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 13:59:30 [Permalink]
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I think "desecration" (of either protected objects or ideas) can be useful when defending liberty, such as blaspheming in direct response to Ireland's blasphemy law or publishing cartoons of Mohammed in opposition to threats of violence meant to censor and limit criticism of Islam. Or even Crackergate, which again was in response to religious individuals attempting to coerce conformity through threats of violence. In these cases, the desecration itself is not the main goal. Rather, it's defending the conviction that the religious have no right to enforce their religion's prohibitions in larger secular society.
I don't really see that to be the case here. It's perfectly legal to rip up a bible in America, so no censorship is being thwarted. Sure, some people who hold the bible to be a sacred text might find this event shockingly offensive, but I highly doubt this event will give them any cause to rethink their position. The only possible benefit I can see this particular event having is as a cathartic experience for those involved, much like the blasphemy challenge was a chance for individuals to "come out" as atheists and leave the religion of their upbringing and culture firmly behind.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/18/2011 14:12:06 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 14:58:55 [Permalink]
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Sigh... I just worry about it looking childish. Like a childish prank. You know, when PZ threw away the wafer, he also threw in Dawkins book. The point? They are just material things, and you don't threaten peoples lives over "things." Had he left Dawkins book out of it, his point wouldn't have been nearly as effective.
As for "Draw Mohammed day" again, there was a basic principle of speech. It wasn't about showing contempt for Islam. It was showing contempt for those Islamic fundamentalists who would thwart, with death threats even, a journalists right to speech. Journalism can't function if it has to self censure. (Sadly, it does anyway.) Again, an important point about the freedom of expression.
And tearing pages out of the bible signifies what? Atheists don't like the bible... Okay. Like that's a big secret. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 17:21:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
And tearing pages out of the bible signifies what? Atheists don't like the bible... Okay. Like that's a big secret. |
They're tearing pages out of Deuterotomy. The verses that advocate stoning sodomites and forcing raped girls to marry their rapists. That sort of thing. The dominionists and reconstructionists actually want those old Mosaic laws implemented in the United States, and both groups are getting more and more attention as time goes on. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 19:01:59 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by marfknox
1.) Adds to the importance of Christianity by giving that religion any special attention at all. |
If Christianity weren't #1 at the moment, I might agree. But "ignore it and it'll go away" is a strategy that hasn't worked to eliminate any religious group yet (other than the suicidal ones, like Heaven's Gate).| 2.) Is way too generalized. It is not responding to any specific atrocity. |
I think they're trying to prevent atrocities.| It is not directing its criticism to any particular sect. |
It's directing its criticism at every sect that places more than historical value in Mosaic law. Trying to pin down one particular Christian sect is a mistake, anyway. There are over 1,500 of them in the U.S. alone.| In short, this just seems like a pretty lame stunt, regardless of whether it offends anyone or not. |
Unfortunately, I can't find the Backyard Skeptics themselves discussing their motives. All I can find are the news article they link to about it. At worst, they're doing a public redacting of the immoral portions of the Bible. At best, reporters will make a connection to the dominionists or other theocratic group and bring more awareness to the problem they pose.
No matter what, it is a stunt, but calling it "lame" when I can't think of any better stunt seems rather harsh. If these guys were to do a non-stunt protest, I doubt most of us would have heard of them. While their pro-atheism billboard campaign seem to be getting some local discussion, this will go nationwide. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2011 : 19:38:08 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Dave W.
Originally posted by Kil
And tearing pages out of the bible signifies what? Atheists don't like the bible... Okay. Like that's a big secret. |
They're tearing pages out of Deuterotomy. The verses that advocate stoning sodomites and forcing raped girls to marry their rapists. That sort of thing. The dominionists and reconstructionists actually want those old Mosaic laws implemented in the United States, and both groups are getting more and more attention as time goes on.
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Yeah. Okay. If they make it clear that's what they are doing. I didn't actually read the article.  |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Atheist group to rip Bible pages
